Felix Ling: There was a point whereby we couldn't really find sufficient sponsors to hold an event. We were given two choices. Either we close this off completely or we actually postpone it, right? Both of which are not possible because the people who signed up to organize this they wanted to get it done. Then I had to make a call of whether to continue or to basically just shut it down.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Welcome to Agile Leaders conversations. This is a podcast where we invite human centered professionals and leaders to share what it means to lead in today's workplaces. From their personal stories, find out their greatest learning that guides them through disruption and forge a better way forward. The insights will maximize your leadership potential and unlock possibilities for a better future. My name is Yeo Chuen Chuen. I'm the author of Leaders People Love a guide for agile leaders to creating great workplaces and happy employees. I'm delighted to have you listen in today. My guest today is Mr. Felix Ling. He's an undergraduate in the national university of Singapore or in short NUS. Felix is the president of the NUS entrepreneurship society, and their mission is to drive initiatives that fosters entrepreneurship, by building strategic partnerships. Felix is passionate about entrepreneurship that drives impact. 

Welcome to the show Felix. It's so good to have you today. And let's start with the first question. Tell us about yourself, your name, what you do and why you do what you do. 

Felix Ling: Thank you for having me for the show. My name is Felix. I'm currently a second year student in NUS doing business, specializing in finance. Also in a special program in NUS college, whereby I actually learn a breadth of humanities subjects. It's an interdisciplinary program for NUS college. Apart from that, I'm also the president in NUS entrepreneurs society. We're a student independent organization that actually drives initiatives that foster entrepreneurship.

This range from hackathons, conferences, networking events. Also, I would say I'm pretty involved in the startup ecosystem as well. Being an overseas internship in Jakarta over the summer. Be hitting in Silicon Valley next year for a year long internship, likely to be in a VC or an AI technological kind of startup.

 Personality wise, I would say I like meeting people, having meaningful conversations, understanding their motivations, and maybe figuring out how I can best live my life. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Figuring out how you can best live your life, and like many young people preparing. It's like taking this last stretch of formal education as the preparation for life, right? And trying to answer this big question, what do I really want in my life? How can I construct the most meaningful and purposeful life? And today, you can see Felix, he's so committed. Working on a hackathon, going out for the podcast, to which I'm very appreciative. I feel the Gen Zs are going to change the workplace in a massive way.

And just before we started recording, we were already chitchatting about, what are the things that are important to the youths today? And we must understand what they bring to the table. And you can hear from Felix's personal experience. So vibrant compared to the time where I was studying, there'd be only one job, which is to study.

And now it's so diverse with abundance of opportunities, which I think there is also a chance that there's a diversity in talents. Diversity in experiences. So having the young leaders join the workforce, it will definitely shape organizations in unexpected ways.

For audiences benefit, Felix is currently in NUS. NUS represents National University of Singapore. NUS is currently one of the top 10 universities in the world. So it's really a pleasure to have you on the show today. So Felix, when you think about a leader people will love, who's the first person that comes to your mind? 

Felix Ling: I would say Robert Iger, the CEO of Walt Disney. Because I was actually inspired by his book. I read his book. I learned a lot about management and leadership, and that's something that my leadership model based on. Some key things that I learned, I think people are what makes an organization. They're the organization's biggest asset. And it's important to actually create a culture where people encourage and empower, perform their best. And that's something I actively try to do. And being a people-oriented leader, understanding people's needs, having empathy, while balancing the state and the organization is important as well. But ultimately, an organization is there to actually drive a certain initiative that empowers the community. 

And I think building a culture is something that many leaders may actually overlook because they're so driven on the organizational objective.

Encouraging people to speak up. Encouraging innovation, things like that. I learned a lot on how I can build culture and also how I can create a balance between managing people and also the organizational goals.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So in your experience then heading the NUS entrepreneurship society. Earlier you spoke about the importance of building the culture where people dare to speak up, people dare to offer ideas. So based on your experience, how did you build a culture?

Felix Ling: Okay. Something I've realized over my time here is that, we are all students. Ultimately we're volunteers. We actually want to put in our time. When Saturdays and Sundays to actually do something. Why would you do that, right? It's simply because you want to achieve certain goals. So my value proposition for people who could join us was really you're you're here to do something you're proud of. You're here to take ownership or initiatives.

And what we do, we provide a platform opportunity for that to manifest. For you to gain exposure into a startup ecosystem. For you to meet entrepreneurs and get inspired. And more importantly, a community of people who have the same interest as you. 

The main point of everything, taking ownership, building something you're proud of.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah, taking ownership. And that's where the lessons of becoming a persuasive leader, right? Trying to pitch an idea or mobilize a large group of people towards a certain direction. I can really see it has set in. Definitely there is empathy. There is also a deep understanding of who you are working with and what you want to achieve as a society. 

And the way you have positioned that collective vision, such that there's something for them to gain, there is the pride involved. We are here to build something we are proud of. Also bringing in collaboration. If you set up a vision that is just for the individuals, it's very easy to have competition. Yeah. I'm just here, I just wanna take as much as possible from this experience and I don't really care about anything else. So what I like in the way you have communicated the culture you wanna build. There is coming together as a group. There's respect of each other's time, because as undergraduates, time is a scarce resource. And let's make full use of the time we have together. This is a platform of opportunities. There's a lot of common ground there. And that's also a clear articulation of what kind of people you're looking for. 

So far, the people you attract is quite spot on?

Felix Ling: Yeah, most of them here are very motivated. And one thing I also said to people at the very start when recruiting, we're not simply an organization who just explore interest. We're here to do things that are very real, because we organize events that engages other stakeholders, right?

It's not simply just a student club whereby there's no commitment. Commitment is important because it drives impact. And the work we do has tangible impacts on the world, on the people around us. 

So that's something I pitched, professionalism. And think of us more of a student led non profit organization rather than just simply a student club.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah, so the expectation of professionalism is the same, and the commitment is the same, right? We are here to do things very real. They are real. We are not just doing things in the school which is different.

Okay, there's a lot of labels people put on youths today. Of course it is natural because we are trying to understand what Gen Z's want, what young people want. What do you think are key understandings about the Gen Z's that everyone, every corporate every person in the ecosystem must know? 

Felix Ling: People may think that it's hard to retain Gen Zs in corporations because we tend to jump ship to try different things out. I think one thing that needs to be understood is that while we're doing that, we're also adding value in certain sense to companies because we bring forth diverse perspective and experiences from other companies, other places. And it's important to acknowledge that the current phenomenon of Gen Zs going to different companies in a short period of time, maybe it's better to actually work towards it and see how they can extract the most values from this Gen Zs.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Very nice. I'm hearing a few things that worth calling them. So first is we jump ship because we like the thrill, right?

And when we jump ship, we are not disrupting the organization. We are adding value. It all boils down to how organizations want to see it. Because when I coach senior leaders, they always say, Oh, attrition is very high, but it's actually not attrition. The way you describe it just now, it is not attrition. It's not a bad thing. It is a renewal. 

Felix Ling: It's a dynamic growth and become better. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yes, it's a dynamic growth, and it's natural. So how we pass the baton makes a big difference.

Felix Ling: And perhaps what company can focus on is the continuity system process on how to the next person rather than the person leaving. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah, so focus on building a strong continuity system, so that the knowledge and experience is transferred. Based on what you have observed, what works? What did the employer do to make it work so that there's no break.

Felix Ling: I would say definitely there'll be break, but the question is how long would that break be and how impactful to the operations. 

When I actually went for the internship, one of the employees was leaving so, I had a matter of days, actually to cover his role, and have to learn things in a very short span of time. It stems from the culture the company is trying to build and the type of people they're trying to hire.

If you look for traits of proactiveness, people who are here to make an impact. People who are here to build and grow themselves. These people, just simply because by virtue of their character and personality, they can actually pick up things very fast. And that's one thing about Gen Z is that we pick up things very fast. We learn very fast. That's something that people may actually overlook. And that's a huge trend and trait. 

Perhaps what company could focus more on is prepare a set of SOP such that when a person's gonna leave, he has a handover process that's able to pass it to the next person in a more succinct and clear manner.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: I like you mentioned succinct, very important. Yes. And it takes two hands to clap, right? For the young leaders joining the workforce, the proactiveness in asking the right questions, getting the right help, figuring out who to ask, and what to ask them. And what organizations can do is to be realistic that yes, there will be a slight break, but how long will it be? How long? 

It depends on the continuity system you build, and the handover process, and how robust and succinct your SOP is. Yes. 

Felix Ling: And to add on to that, I feel that's just one part of innovation. And one thing that I learned from the book, I mentioned Robert Iger is that in this 21st century, where things are going so fast with AI and technology, things are gonna change a lot .And it's either you innovate or you die.

And that's the same for talents, while it's very fast paced, it ensures growth and the company innovate through that. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yup. So we don't just look at engaging talents, retaining them. We also want to build very nimble organizations that can tap on the best of this workforce. Because I honestly don't hear as much conversations about building continuity system. Most people will talk about how can I engage, how can I retain the, everyone is thinking about how can I hold on to the person for as long as possible. I know the statistics say Gen Zs will stay in the jobs, maybe one year, one and a half years.

And most too. But they don't wanna see you. They say no, we are gonna make them stay here 10 years.

Felix Ling: Yeah., Employees will seek out other things simply because of potential. And as employer, you'll encourage them to develop themselves and see how they can help you in the long run.

They can't do anything if employees leave, but what they can do is how they can mitigate that and make it such that the next person who comes in adds more value to the company based on the previous legacy work that's been done. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Okay. So we cannot hang on to the people, but we can make sure the next person who comes in builds on the value of the first one. That's a very good reframe. 

Curious in the NUS Entrepreneurship Society. Do people not finish the program? Like maybe they drop after a year. They drop after two years,? 

Felix Ling: I would say it's a huge issue in any organization, and it's also in NES. Especially so when this is a student led organization. Students who have priorities, academics, job opportunities and whatnot. And ultimately this is a volunteer driven initiative and organization. So definitely there will be attrition. But what really drives to ensure that we still hit our milestones, our events are sustaining when actually people wanting to leave. In most cases, actually people are responsible enough or accountable enough to finish what they're here to do. But in cases whereby people don't want to do stuff, we have to find other backup plans to do things. And one way is to bring the robust system whereby they're able to update the next person coming in on what's gonna happen. There will always be motivated people looking to take on projects. To do something they're proud of.

I can hear the resourcefulness. Because it's very easy for anyone to say, you're not going to finish with this. You're a traitor. It's very easy to lapse into that mindset because everyone who tells you, oh, I can't commit time anymore. It's easier for you to label them and say that, huh, you are not committed. But that sense of accepting and understanding where people are coming from, what's important to them and responding very strategically knowing that, Hey, there's a system that's not in place right now, the continuity system. How can we build it? How can we find the right people? How can we equip them with the resources so that they do really well in a project? We do not expect people to stay here for all four years because life is so dynamic.

Yes. 

 How do you find the right people?

That's something I struggled with initially. Building this organization took a while.

As I said, membership for me is there for one year. How I managed to get people on board was because I need to understand their motivation. What's in it for them? That's the way I really assess people. Because the growth of the people is dependent on the organization,. If their values and vision are aligned. So by understanding people's motivations, you find the right fit. With the right fit, you can assess their competency and capabilities, which I also feel can be trained on over time in their committed role. So that's how I found my people. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: There's always that dialogue and understanding what motivates others. And how well it gels with the vision. So you assemble a team of people whose vision for themselves and the vision for the society already aligns.

Yes. 

Yes. And you are also realistic about this alignment can change anytime. 

Yes. 

And it is building the culture where it's okay to talk about this Oh, this is not for me anymore. It's fine. And then it's a gracious separation is a very nice hand over. And there's no hard feelings in that sense.

Yes. 

You're constantly then also building a brand for the society. The more people who understand the vision of the society and the kind of people you are looking for, the more you can attract them. 

I like what you said, the growth of the organization depends on the growth of the people. 

Felix Ling: Yeah. And that's how it should be. Employees go to work and find an employer. They are not only for the income, but to grow themselves personally and the career trajectory.

And I feel a good organization, a successful one that keeps on innovating should encourage growth building employers. Because growth and employers translate to more opportunities available for them, organizing themselves in the long run, in a macro aspect. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Understand. You interact with businesses, right? Because you are creating opportunities. It's a platform of opportunities. Has anyone ever told you, You're so young. What can you do? Any kind of such interactions? How has it been like? 

Felix Ling:  The youthfulness is used in a positive manner not in the negative manner. People will be like, wow! You guys are doing this, right? That's how it is. And that is why organizations are so willing to support us, to sponsor us, because they believe in the youth . And it's very rare to see student led organization that can perform professionally to a standard that's comparable to industrial standards as well.

In fact, in this world, many change makers are people who are very young. And they are there simply because they believe in their ideas. And they're supported by adults who believe in their vision. And things are here to change themselves as things get increasingly dynamic. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yes. So age isn't an issue if you're professional enough.

Felix Ling: I feel ultimately it's what you can do. Your relevance. Your impact. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yes. And your understanding of the value you bring, which means the way you communicate your brand and position yourself are very important. If you want to be taken seriously, it is how we show up. 

Felix Ling: Yes. And more importantly, the tangible things can do the impact.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah. Impact. Wow. Can you tell us, hackathon is done at NCS group. Did you have to pitch for this to happen? 

Felix Ling: This is actually something I helped kickstart. Yes, this is one of the new things I actually brought on board.

This was a kind of an interesting story. So initially this hackathon was actually started by a partner. Someone approached me from another company, and is interested in doing this. This new hackathon. So I brought this on board because it can increase our brand equity. And it's something that we can also work on .It aligns with our vision because of the precision of the hackathon. So initially they really started to collaborate. I decided to bring the idea on board and basically we only had three months to do a planning and everything. That is a very short amount of time. Over time, as things progresses, some things didn't work really well. In fact there was a point whereby we couldn't really find sufficient sponsors to hold an event. We were given two choices. Either we close this off completely or we actually postpone it, right? Both of which are not possible because the people who signed up to organize this they wanted to get it done. Then I had to make a call of whether to continue or to basically just shut it down right considering the efforts of people the past two months, over 30 plus members.

So we rebranded it and make it a student led organization Hackathon, so we didn't actually partner with them anymore. And then within just 10 days of rebranding, we attracted more than 150 participants. They actually paid for this thing. And more than 10 sponsorships to actually make it a surplus so that we can fund this as cost neutral.

I would say I'm very proud for this to happen. It deepens our brand equity. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So you do this because you want to deepen the brand equity. 

Felix Ling: Correct. Ultimately it's for the community and the people who have worked hard on this. And that paid off by taking the leap of Faith. Yes. And now we are actually budget neutral. 

 That's very good. Things in the end turn out well. The participants get the experience. The sponsors, you have even more sponsors than you expected, right? And it's budget neutral. Better than budget deficits. 

That's a good life experience. And that's where the experiential learnings. 

The things that we went through. It all builds up to something, right? Making the best of the situation. 

Yeah. What was your greatest learning from this?

From this I would say, it was at the point where I had to make a decision of whether to call it off based on rational reasons because of this budget change, budget deficit, or whether to continue it because of the effort that people have put in. And people have feedback from me that I'm a very people centric leader, right?

That is good. That may not be the best case for the organization, given that, if this thing actually didn't work out, the rest of it would actually be a huge budget deficit for this event alone.

The greatest learning point is really trusting your gut feel. When people talk about business, they always talk about this certain sense of gut feel that can't really be documented properly.

And this is where I really feel it. Because I had to take a risk. I had to take a gamble and see how things go. At that point when I made the decision, it was really based on my belief that we can make this work. We just see what we can do and that blind faith and optimism in the times of hardship is what really drives things forward.

Keep moving forward and try to drive success. And one thing that I want to quote, I don't know where you watch movies, Rocky Balboa "It ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward." And to have the mindset that we know, no matter how tough the situation is, you gotta keep moving forward and that's how we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. 

Day. Yeah, for me personally, I learned a lot through movies, films, animes, things like that. Living precariously through others experience.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: 

That's good. What strengths do you see in your team that gave you the courage to take this risk?

Felix Ling: I would say it's the commitment and dedication because throughout the past two and plus months. They have been working so hard on this that they're having calls almost every other day, you just want to see the effort manifest, right? And I believe in hard work. And I believe that it pays off. And I've interacted with these people before. I know that they're not just working hard. They're also working smart, right? And it's just things are not in our favor then. 

And I believe in these people. I know that these other people, let's say in the future, potentially I will start a business. These are the people I want to work with because they have their strong work ethic. And because of that's what drives me to believe in this.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah. Remembering this current setup is totally voluntary basis.

Felix Ling: Yeah, totally voluntary basis. In fact, if things are so stressed and stuff, they could just quit and stop. And the repercussions, there's not really much repercussion. You're just a student, right? But to put in so much effort for accountability, for the value that they have portrayed, I think that's something.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah. Agree. So it illustrates the point where not everything can be rationalized. Logic isn't the only thing that we must look at, right? The whole world is disrupted, the innovation that we need. The risk appetite that we need to also cultivate. You could do that this time because you have assembled the right team, and that is attributed to the hard work you've done before, right?

Yeah. So this is a good example, and I'm sure it's very real. I am a hundred percent certain this is the experiential learning that will help you be ready for the real world. Definitely at this stage in your life, you are much, much more ready for the real world than I was when I was an undergrad.

And I think I can see the value of it. Okay. I have a, I have three young kids. So when they become young adults like you, then I can understand why they want to do things the way they do, because it's exercising that proactiveness and the choices in creating the life that you want.

Felix Ling: Yep. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah. And building the skills needed through the right experiences. 

Felix Ling: 

The world is changing, got to adapt and really innovate to keep up. Yeah. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: 

Yeah. What qualities do you think leaders need today to be effective, especially when our organizations are multi generational? 

Felix Ling: Of all this experience I've talked about, one thing is certain is that really empathy, understanding people. I feel effective leadership stems from understanding the motivation of people, employees. And when motivation comes from within. They are able to provide much more value than their pay grade what they are able to go beyond. So simply because they believe in the cause, they believe in the company, they believe in the product.

I think that applies to every generation. I think that's what drives people to succeed. 

Yeah. Truly understand what motivates them. 

Are there some questions you always ask to understand them?

Yes. One thing I look for is usually I'll ask about motivations. Why do you want to apply for this? What do you seek out of this? What is the end goal? 

Let's say I'm interviewing for someone who's going to be the head of the new department, right? I'll ask him. Why do you apply for this? And then they tell them their motivation, then what do you hope to achieve out of this? I think that's a slightly different question, because what you hope to achieve drives a vision that you want to see at the end. And I want to see whether that vision aligns with mine. I want to see really what they want for themselves.

So to further evaluate the person's personality, or what he truly meant to say, I'll ask about his or her previous involvement in other activities and understand the way of thinking, the motivation. Suppose this person has organized a church band before or not, or understand the process of why the person did it, how they did it.

And that is some indicators to show this person truly may want to see if things are aligned with single narrative. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo:  This is the kind of dialogue that's not happening in companies enough.

There are certain organizations where the operating model is  managers telling people what they need to achieve. There's no question like what's in it for you? Because you are paid, we will decide for you. 

So even from the questions you ask, they are 100 percent empathy driven to understand what makes people tick. Because of the questions, you are able to curate and make sure that you have chosen the right people. 

What's one advice you have for current and future leaders? 

Felix Ling: Really understanding people motivation. Simply it's because of my leadership style. But I feel really, everything that we do, we're all trying to find a reason to do things. And really, to do great work, you need to have a strong reason.

I don't think everyone has their purpose in life figured out. That's a very big question. People may still be finding it. I think that's absolutely fine. More importantly, it's important for people to be transparent, to be honest, right?

If you're there just in it for the money, sure, so be it. But ensure that they have the competency and technical abilities to deliver what their job demands for them. I think work ethic still plays a huge role. It's still very important. It's not simply just about people's motivation. Motivation, can it get you so far?

But ultimately, having the right attitude, the right technicalities to get where the company or organization is striving towards, that's the importance as well. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah. That's a very fair point. It's very practical as well. Everyone will have the moment they are born, they got their purpose figured out. No, 

I think I only figured out mine when I was in my 30s, honestly. And that's okay. Let's say you want to hire somebody in the future and you ask them what's in it for you. I don't know. I just need a paycheck. I just need to pay off my student loan. Fine. 

Felix Ling: Yeah. And important is whether they can deliver what you need for them. Setting the expectation from the very start. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yes. And equipping them with the right skills. Yes. Perfect. I learned so much from you today from this conversation. Hope to see you in real life one day. And I wish you all the best in your upcoming internship next year.

Felix Ling: Thank you so much for having me on board this podcast. I'm really honored to be able to share some of the experience I had.