Shinn Teo: When it comes to your people not being able to trust you, not being able to be open with you in terms of their feedback, or even ways for them to be creative. I think that actually would end up limiting them. And then it would impact on your business priorities, your results, and just how your company functions when it comes to the workforce.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Welcome to agile leaders conversations. This is a podcast where we invite human centered professionals and leaders. To share what it means to lead in today's workplaces. From their personal stories find out their greatest learning that guides them through disruption and forge a better way forward. 

Their insights were maximize your leadership potential and unlock possibilities for a better future. My name is Yeo Chuen Chuen I'm the author of leaders people love a guide for agile leaders to creating great to workplaces and happy employees. I'm delighted to have you listen in today. 

My guest is Shinn Teo. Shinn seeks deep satisfaction in bringing out the best in people and forging relationships with organizations. Combining her belief in people development and appreciation for lifelong learning, Shinn is responsible for supporting young graduates and alumni to define their career paths and launch their careers with the best foot forward. 

Welcome to the show, Shinn. Tell us what you do and why you do what you do. 

Shinn Teo: Thank you, Chuen Chuen for having me. A quick introduction of myself. I'm Shinn. I currently am the Associate Director for Alumni and Careers here in Southeast Asia and Oceania with IE University in Spain. Generally, I'm responsible for supporting young graduates and alumni to define their career paths and launch their careers with the best foot forward here in the region. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Best foot forward, indeed. This whole series is about Leaders People Love. So Shinn, I've known you for quite a long time, and I know you work with many good leaders too. When you think about a leader people will love, who's the first person that comes to your mind?

Shinn Teo: If I may, I have a combination of a few people that have qualities that, when put together would be really appreciative. 

Obviously with Lee Kuan Yew's legacy coming up. He is one that I thought is really visionary, resilient, and the kind of unwavering dedication and determination is really appreciated.

I also think that Michelle and Barack Obama both have their core strengths as well. So Michelle, for the fact that she's relatable, she's able to command a high level of self respect for herself, but also respect from others. And Barack Obama, obviously for the fact that he was able to provide comfort and calmness in times of fear and uncertainty during his term.

And the last one that I thought I could bring in is Emma Watson. Her grace, her intelligence, and her determination to showcase the importance of empowerment of young women. 

That is something that all leaders should consider having as part of the quality for themselves. Emma Watson obviously is more known for being in Harry Potter acting the role as Hermione. But what truly made it a firm belief for her is when she was appointed UN Women Goodwill Ambassador in 2014. 

So if you imagine an actress going into humanities, into societal issues as such, I think it is quite admirable on top of her passion for acting and for arts in general. So what she actually has done in terms of promoting education for girls in let's say more countries in need promoting fair trade and organic clothing. All these things are what the generation right now actually would really appreciate because it's all about the women also playing a part here in the society. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: All these qualities are all that we want in leaders who inspire us. Being a visionary. Being determined.

So in your area of responsibility, as a nurturing relationship builder and connector, what have you learned about leadership that you try to pass on to every single person that you connect with?

I think to sum it up, I've always been one who seeks a lot of satisfaction in bringing out the best in people. So I take a lot of pride in forging all these relationships, with individuals, or even with companies. And I'm just very passionate about encouraging personal and professional growth.

So when it comes to what qualities leaders should have, I really think that remembering to be human is one thing. Nowadays, because of the uncertainty, because of the ever changing business priorities, we sometimes forget to be human. We forget to be empathetic. We forget to stop, pause and reflect.

  And not just rush into things. So I do think that is a one liner that could sum up what leaders need to be in today's context and also in the future.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: How do you remind leaders gently that they need to stop, pause and reflect, and not rush into things in your day to day interactions?

Shinn Teo: I think a reminder to share with them is the impact that it can have if they do not behave or lead like a human should. Because when you do not showcase empathy, you do not showcase any form of being empowering, inclusive, you will actually see the detrimental effect on your people. 

So when it comes to your people, not being able to trust you, not being able to be open with you in terms of their feedback, or even ways for them to be creative. I think that actually would end up limiting them. And then it would impact on your business priorities, your results, and just how your company functions when it comes to the workforce. 

 So for example, when I have the opportunity to mentor the younger colleagues of mine. I think it really reminds me how sometimes when they come on board, as interns or as a young employee, we do not have the time to train or teach them. We just need them to get right into the business and get things done for and with us.

Shinn Teo: So what I really appreciated from him is that, I wanted to get to know him as an individual. I wanted to understand from him right from the start why he had wanted to take on this internship. What did he think were his strengths, and what did he think that we at the office were meant to accomplish.

So when you start to be able to understand the different perspectives, then that's where you can map and align. And I think playing along with their strengths is something that would make one feel powerful and magical actually. So when you're able to leverage on their strengths, it definitely gives them more satisfaction rather than you telling them what to do without telling them the why and the how. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Workplaces now with the Gen Zs entering the workforce, I think a lot of leaders want to understand them, but they may not have the right way to do so. Referring to stereotypes is not a helpful way. Because it is getting down to understanding the individual, right? Understand their insecurities, anxieties, their aspirations, their strengths. That would then help us be the guiding light and play that mentoring role much better and bring out the fullest potential. The need for leaders to have coaching and mentoring skills that you have is very high and in your experience, it has always worked out well, right? 

Shinn Teo: I would say it's the fact that you are willing to get to know this person, making them remember how you made them feel is always key. Because they can definitely, at one point be very stressed out about certain tasks and all, but knowing that someone was able to help and support them would make them be able to approach this task very differently as well. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Is this intern still in touch with you?

Shinn Teo: He is, and I'm really thankful for that because as I mentioned earlier on, I really find satisfaction in being able to make a mark in someone's life and I am noticing that he is reaching out to me here and there for certain things, and I think I've built that trust. And if you can imagine that multiplied by a lot of your other colleagues and staff, we can imagine how powerful it can be. 

 Here's a reminder to all leaders, all professionals in the workforce. Remember to be humans. Remember to connect. Maya Angelou has this saying, right? People will forget what you did, but they will never forget how you make them feel. That's super important. And at the end of the day, if we look at our contributions. At the end of life, it all goes down to relationships. And I can see how Shinn, you are living up to that slogan you have put up for yourself, the nurturing relationship builder and connector. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So Shinn, I know not too long ago you experienced being made redundant. What are your insights from that experience? 

Shinn Teo: I think due to ever changing business priorities and, financial challenges. This had happened to me earlier on. While it did come as a surprise, I think it was really a blessing in disguise. I also thought that perhaps if you believe a little bit in fate and destiny, it's almost like this decision was made in order to prevent you from experiencing further negativity.

So that was one perspective that I looked at, but when it happened to me realizing that it was a blessing in disguise was definitely a journey. At that point in time, knowing that you had other family members who were relying on you for the rice bowl that you had, and on top of that, for something that you truly believed and cared for. That you've lost it almost overnight. I think that definitely has a hit on you mentally and emotionally. And almost if I could put it that way, if I didn't care so much for working hard and representing the organization, maybe it wouldn't have hurt as much. There was a lot of times where I reflected and thought that, was this anything got to do with my capabilities? Were my skills not being well proved in today's context? 

And I think these questions are normal, and it's fine for you to think about it, but it's how you come up and stand out from it after that. I started to realize again and be reminded where my strengths were, and when I saw and realized that, oh, actually these are things that truly make me happy.

I saw the change in my energy as well. So I think that's where you will constantly experience that rollercoaster emotion, but having that resilience and grit to be able to bring yourself back up again is really important.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: 

Did you notice all these things that you said are qualities of leaders people love? The vision for yourself, the determination, the grit to bring yourself out of that life's roller coaster, which I can imagine can only pick up in pace. Remembering to be human. There's a chapter in my book dedicated to emotions are just emotions, no good, not bad. It's how you see it and how you react to it.

So I'm glad you gave yourself time to stop, pause and reflect. And also not rush into things because any decision made driven by fear is not going to be good. And right now, I think you are in a better place. You know exactly what your strengths are and the value you bring to the world. And this is also something related to what I had written about recently is the fear of failure among adults.

We have this fear when we are children, and many of us carry this fear with us. The reality is the economic conditions have become so volatile.

So being made redundant can happen to anyone. We owe it to ourselves to reinvent and improve, come back stronger every time something like that disrupts our lives.

So, what's the state of the workplace? What are some patterns and trends you observe in workplaces?

Shinn Teo:  

When it comes to the general workplaces in today's context, I don't think we've realized that actually at one point, we have five generations at work. You have your baby boomers, your XYZ, right? And even sometimes your Merdeka generation as well. So hiring has always been an issue.

But with what we currently have right now, I feel like businesses should definitely be more aware of these generational differences. Again as we mentioned earlier on, we should probably stop generalizing or stereotyping generations.

Because it really is a matter of understanding one another. It's the willingness to get to know them. Because when you realize that all of the generations, when they can work together, this whole diversity will turn out to be a magic pot of different potions put together.

Other generations can learn from the other generation. Some qualities and characteristics that perhaps they have shaped due to whatever economical or societal factors that have come into place during their period of life. So I do think that is one very important aspect to the workforce today.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Understanding the generations, be aware of labels, stereotypes and develop the willingness to get to know them.

Do you think there are some essential skills that leaders today fostering the intergenerational understanding must have?

Shinn Teo: I would say it's definitely the growth mindset on lifelong learning, that constant thirst and quest for knowledge and personal development. Knowing that it not only benefits you, but your growth will grow on others as well.

 It's like a very resilient money plant that will be able to survive and thrive wherever and even sometimes just leverage on other people's strengths to become even stronger. So that's definitely one aspect.

Shinn Teo: Communication. I think this is something that we've always emphasized. It's something that is always work in progress. No one's communication is perfect, but when we are also willing to listen actively, that's where we build trust and rapport with our team, understanding what they truly need, what their pain points are, and being able to help them and empathy. All of us are humans. All of us have emotions.

So being able to care for their needs and gain their trust. While it sounds very simple, it is an art. But it's something that as long as we're willing to put in effort and learn to do better every day, it's worth doing. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Shinn, many clients come to me saying that when they have employees or team members who are very different from them, they will question every piece of work that is given. To people who don't understand, they're only picking things that they like to do or things that will make them very visible, showcase them, bring them look great.

 In every job, there's no perfect combination. So what's your take on this? How can leaders help employees see the purpose and meaning behind the work that they do? 

Shinn Teo: I think this stems from the fact that everyone is obviously different. Everyone has different mindsets. Expectations are different, even their way of communicating, the way they respond to things are different. So if we sum it all up, when things are not aligned, it's simply for the fact that we are all misunderstood. In my opinion, appreciating each other's viewpoints, taking the effort to understand their strengths, and what their weaknesses are. While I do not like to use the word weaknesses, there are just some areas that people are not as inclined to do or to act, even challenges and fears. But this takes time for leaders to be able to build that kind of trust and rapport for one to be vulnerable to you. There will be some who are more open than others.

But it's the fact that  leaders take the effort to understand where they are coming from, to be able to deliver the type of work that they expect. And I think it's all about being more open, being more creative. And sometimes your way is really not always the way to go. Your way has been the way that it has been done all along, and perhaps it needs some new blood to be injected.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So when you notice some people don't like parts of their work. Did they achieve a mindset shift?

Shinn Teo: With that, I think some approach it as a job. Some approach it as if they have fun, they have purpose, they have passion for it. But I always say that it's not going to be a job that you like 100 percent of it. There may be a 10 percent of administrative work that takes up time that you're not a fan of, but the majority of it, 90 percent is what you truly enjoy. Whereas it's 90 percent that you don't like doing it, then it's maybe time to be kinder to yourself and question that perhaps this job is no longer what you want in your current phase of life.

And I always also say that, Really, if you don't have passion, if you don't have purpose, it's very difficult for you to function daily. And we are only here on earth temporarily. So it really is important for us to be able to find purpose in what we do for the fact that we are here.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: How can people find their purpose? 

Shinn Teo: 

I've been very fortunate to have shaped or realized that at a slightly earlier age where I know that people is the core of everything that I do. While I know that there are people who don't see it as naturally or quickly but I say it's not the end of life of this world. It's a lot of digging, a lot of polishing of yourself. If you think about a mineral or a jewel that you're trying to dig from the ground.

I also think that in order to find purpose, it's thinking back to let's say your childhood. Are there certain nuances or experiences that you've had that you realize, you just lit up? Are there also current situations where you are more inclined to approach that you truly enjoy? You see yourself smiling or actually ask people around you because sometimes what they see is not what you see as well.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: That's true. So it's a process. Nobody is born on earth suddenly, and we all know what our purpose is. A few places that could give us some insight, look at your childhood, ask for feedback from people, right? Like when people notice, the kind of people I love the most are those who see the potential in you before you see in yourself. Those people have done so much for me. 

As a kid, I'm not confident. I always think I have more shortcomings than strengths, but recently, especially these few years, I have met godsend people. Just for existing, they make your life better, right?

 For encouragement for all leaders is look out for the geniuses around you, say, Hey, I noticed you are really good at something, and that could be part of the refinement process of uncovering the real purpose.

So for you in childhood, what was it like? How do you know that people is a core part of you?

Shinn Teo: I was fortunate enough to go to Indonesia or nearby countries for holidays with my parents. And when I was on a holiday, once I went back to the hotel room and I saw a cake sitting in the middle of the room. As usual, I hugged my dad and mom and said, Thank you so much for arranging this birthday cake for me.

And they looked at me puzzled and they said, Actually, it's not us having prepared this cake. And I found it really weird because then who else would have known my birthday in a foreign destination. And later on, I learned that it was the front office. When they checked us in, they had visibility to my passport and noticed that it was my birthday that very day.

Knowing that we went outside seeing and coming back, then the cake was already lit up and ready for me . So I think that was when it really triggered me and said. I wanted to leave memorable guest experiences for people in general. And when I say guests, they could be strangers. They could be my colleagues. They could be my friends, my family members. I just wanted to make people happy. And I think that is where it all started.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: And people indeed will never forget how you make them feel. And imagine, every day we make a stranger's day.

So for workplaces now with many generations, lack of understanding is an issue. Can you share your experience, bringing a new member on board?

Shinn Teo: When it comes to onboarding, I think what is important is you may sometimes wish to give more information than the job requires because it is up to the individual to be able to make the judgment on whether they will take in this information and apply it to their role or not. And I think what is also important is to paint a realistic picture.

When this employee is already on board with you, there is no point selling the dream anymore. It is about making it realistic while things may not be a bed of roses right now. Can this employee actually be with you on this journey to make it a bed of roses and enjoy the positive results later on? By doing that, it's going to be much more useful than you managing the expectations and being able to ensure that cultural fits.

Evaluating their strengths right from the start is also a good idea because when an employee is new, you don't know what they are good at until they start on a task, or when you start to get to know them. And if profiling tools and assessments can be, one or two that can help you learn more about them, maybe you would also start to see them in a different light and have more confidence in them performing in this role later on.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: And that's where the culture building comes in, right? Culture is not what we say. It's what we show is, right? What struck me was that evaluate strengths right from the start. I can always remember say my first day at work in a new place. It feels quite dangerous. They have this flip chart of checklists, and then they are like checking you out, literally. And they're trying to catch you doing something wrong. It feels very dangerous, and it feels psychologically unsafe. Whereas if we have the culture, where we look out for each other's strengths right from the start, we are catching them doing right.

Then it creates a very safe workplace where people can bring their whole selves. And I like that reality part as well. We have to give them a clear view of what reality is and show where the gap is. And then let's get to the ideal state together. 

Are there specific questions that you always prepare when you work with a newcomer?

Shinn Teo: Some questions that I will always like to ask them is, why had they chosen this role? What did they think they could accomplish? And if they were to put themselves in the shoes of someone who is managing this organization, where do they hope for this organization to be at and whether they are aligned with with that direction or not? Yeah. So I think the alignment is definitely it has to be there right from the start. It's a process, but it has to constantly be checked in on.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: For people seeking jobs, right? How can they choose the right workplace for themselves?

Shinn Teo: First of all, it has to be through the interview and hiring process, speak with the hiring manager and ask them the right questions.

And this has to be prepared, especially when we go for interviews, a lot of people say, Oh no, I don't have any questions. And I think that's the wrong approach because it's the one rare time you can actually ask.

So questions, for example, to your hiring manager or your potential boss next time is definitely about how the current situation is like in the company and where they want to get to, what is their leadership style? What are the big no nos for them? What makes them happy? 

While the list can go on, I think there also needs to be reflection of what your values are. Are they also aligned with your potential boss? Because if it's not, you're going to find it a very difficult time there eventually.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Everyone looking for jobs, it's not only the hiring manager or the company choosing you. You also have the right to choose. Everybody wants to work with leaders whose styles, matches and suits them. And who this person looks like can differ. So the more we understand ourselves, the more we can exercise the right choice.

At conferences and stuff, you also always ask questions? 

Shinn Teo: I try to whenever I have the opportunity. Sometimes in a conference, it's not possible to ask in a big group. But there's always opportunities to ask in smaller breakout sessions.

And I guess it's always. The reminder that let's say at interviews, it's not only you being interviewed, but you can actually also interview the company and same for when you go for conferences, when you network, when you meet people, just remain curious. You are there to learn, you are there to build business and it's okay that you don't know everything.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: 

We play an active role in finding the best workplace and the leader that suits us. We also need to play an active role in building our personal brand, right? So Shinn, I know that you are the top personal branding voice on LinkedIn. Tell us about your journey because that's something that a lot of leaders worry about. How would others look at me? Would they laugh at me? So how do you get started and got this achievement?

Shinn Teo: I think it's definitely a process that has come thus far.

It is the constant curiosity about myself. The constant shaping myself as well. Obviously, if you look at the way I write or behave 10 years ago versus now, it's definitely going to change and that's a good thing. 

I would say it's a lot of confidence in yourself. And this comes alongside the fact that you trust who you are. Because when you trust who you are as an individual, you have values that you firmly stand for. It will just come out very naturally.

So I think it's also, aside from what we mentioned, your strengths, your values it's being able to be clear about those and leverage on them. Exercise those understanding of the strengths and the values and apply them in all that you do.

And once you figure that out, it actually will come very naturally and it'll be quite easy because it's almost like you know it at the tip of your fingers, essentially. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: 

Second time you talk about values today, so everything you do is values driven, right?

Shinn Teo: I think when it comes to values, it is something that you should hold close to your heart, and it's something that only you believe in. It's something you stand for. No one can take that away from you. 

Many people may think that, oh, it sounds really fluffy to have values. It sounds like, oh, it's just some other way to describe yourself, but you would again realize the magic when you are able to identify values that you set for yourself. It doesn't have to be a lifetime value, it could be for this year, you would like to focus on certain things and you hold those values close to you for that year. That also works. So I would say this is why values for me is really important.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Listeners who are curious, the values exercise is an exercise that you can get from my website.

So if you go to my website and sign up for my mailing list, you will get access to a portal where you will get the values exercise and take it from Shinn. 

Know yourself well. Let it show up in everything that you do. Because once you trust, you are no longer worried about how others perceive you.

And in this time and day, leaders who are authentic. Leaders who dare to be humans, who have the courage to be disliked are the ones that are going to become leaders people will love. It's about showing and bringing out the human aspect of you and everything else will become super clear. Then it's easy to navigate even when conditions, the larger environment change.

What's one lesson you believe leaders today must learn sooner rather than later?

Shinn Teo: It's back again to the fact that people centric management and culture simply breeds service excellence and positive results. While research again have shown we have not practiced it well, and I think it's now or never.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: It's a worthy reminder. Many enterprises in the profit business, right?

It's all about bottom line. But looking at how workforce have changed, that also means our consumers have changed. Then have businesses now kept up with the new expectations of both consumers and the workforce. They'll continue to keep them relevant and thriving in the new normal.

It's been a great conversation with you, Shinn as always. I'm very honored to have you on this show to share your insights, so let's stay in touch.