Deniece Tan: I actually applied 14 times for multiple different roles. I got rejected 14 times. That's okay because I got so much rejection in my life as a business owner.

 It's not going to hurt you. You're not going to bleed. It's really nothing. So just keep applying. So that was how I got employed here. 

Welcome to agile leaders conversations. This is a podcast where we invite human centered professionals and leaders to share what it means to lead in today's workplaces. From their personal stories, find out the greatest learning that guy stem through disruption and forge a better way forward. The insights will maximize your leadership potential and unlock possibilities for better future. My name iYeo Chuen Chuen. 

I'm the author of leaders people love, a guide for agile leaders to creating great workplaces and happy employees. I'm delighted to have you listen in today. 

My guest is the Deniece Tan. 

 In the last 15 years, Denise carved out an unconventional career, beginning in advertising and then became the art director at a young age of 20. She has run three service-based startups as an entrepreneur, and is now a business tech consultant, employing a blend of service, design and process re-engineering strategies, to uncover the true value that IT implementation can bring to the end users. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Great to have you here. Deniece. To start off, tell us a little about yourself, what you do, and why you do what you do. 

Deniece Tan: I'm a digital business analyst at Govtech and with specialization in service design. So I do what I do because it gives me a chance to bring the human element to our digital services which are public basic. And that's something quite meaningful to me because I am also an end user of our government's digital services.

I do feel the motivation in improving how the UI and the customer experience. 

In GovTech, we actually have an engagement managers who do outreach and also be the bridge for policies that require maybe our citizens to look forward to another change in the ways of life.

But for me I'm subordinate to ACRA now, which is the business registry of the nation. We do have a business registry internet facing system. We have to design with a bit more inclusivity in mind. Because, we serve a wide range of business owners and also corporate service providers, these people could range from very young entrepreneurs, 18 onwards, and taxi drivers who could be in their 60's. 

When we design services or products, we have to take into consideration who we are actually doing it for and who we could impact. guess that's one fun thing about my job. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So that's where the human element comes in. Walking in their shoes and understanding how can we deliver the services and products to them in a very natural, frictionless way.

Deniece Tan: Yeah, absolutely. Not only that, people sometimes the fact that the human centricity has to also come inside the workplace, right? In agencies, you have our public servants who are driving all these digital services. They themselves also need to facilitate that kind of user centricity, walk a mile in the user's shoes. So it doesn't start from just the users themselves, it really starts when we come up with the inception of a service or how to improve something. So it starts all the way from the source, the human centricity, the people who are actually delivering or building this service. It's also equally as important as the ones who are using on the end. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: I heard two expressions that got my attention. One was walk a mile in the user's shoes. That's one. Number two is it's not only the end users human experience, centricity matters, it's also the people involved in the development. So it starts on the workplace. 

 In your work then, how do you bring this human element in when it is people who you work with, in order to deliver the service and product to the clients?

Deniece Tan:  

Coming from a design background, it always starts with listening, right? The empathy doesn't come by snapping your fingers.

It actually requires you to play sincere part in wanting to listen to other people or hear them out, right? And then you can observe their expressions almost, right?

And when you hear them, you hear their pains, what they go through, you'll be able to design an experience- that will hopefully smooth out these kinks and give them something what we call a delightful experience. And that is what people remember, products, services, or even people for. That delightfulness, right?

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yes. And the delightfulness in developing the product as well.

Deniece Tan: Yeah. It doesn't always have to feel like a uphill battle, right? It always can be like, hey! The journey was actually quite fun, and the product is the fruit of our labor. So that actually what brings people together when they look back. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah. So I can hear how human centricity is in everything that you do, because a lot of entities, they will only think about. It's about serving clients, and their needs and their wants are always number one. Human centricity has to include people who are involved in the development as well. 

And one thing you said that was very powerful, hear their pain. Don't shy away or be afraid of such conversations because those conversations, if you listen with empathy, that's where you can really help to smoothen out the issues and bring that joy and delight into the entire experience.

This is so in line with the whole essence of this series of podcasts, though this podcast is developed in conjunction with my book Leaders People Love. So we are all about talking about how can we make the working experience more joyful. And more meaningful for people. It's not just about delighting customers.

It's also delighting our team and creating a very meaningful and memorable experience together. 

When you think about a leader, people will love, who's the first person that comes to mind. 

Deniece Tan: Frankly speaking, I'm not too big of a corporate leaders because I don't really know too well about them and why they make specific decisions. I take inspiration from a lot of things in my life. 

 Things like nature and stuff like that basically what gives me inspiration, and this is going to be a. unpopular opinion. 

I do like Korean music a lot. And Korean music is most known for K pop. When you asked me what is a leader that I think about, it would be actually the leader of a girl group.

Her name is Taeyeon. And she leads south Korean girl band for the past 15 years. She's actually the same age as me, so she started when she was 16 or 17. 

K pop idols, most of their life is highly public, and they themselves are a product, right? I'm a person about product management. So they themselves are a product and honestly, they have no plan B. It's either make it or break it. So to lead a team that has to go up, has to be successful is immensely stressful especially from a young age. 

She didn't actually take the spot of the leader by volunteering, she was volunteered. I think in lots of cases during our working experience, you'll find yourself volunteered for a lot of situations and to take it in stride is actually not an easy task.

And with so much riding on you the amount of company resources that were pumped into this product, it's really quite hard to back down, even if it's a very treacherous road ahead, you just have to move forward. So I thought throughout the years, the work ethic the resilience, despite all the things that didn't go well. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So it's her work ethics, her spirits of resilience, determination, reinvention, even creativity. That adversity that you describe, it feels so much like leaders also. Sometimes I will get leaders who get promoted and they feel so anxious because they feel like this is the stage I have to perform every time. There's no room for failure. You either make it or break it. And how do I reinvent myself? Getting there more and more constraints. How can I still make our business work? How can I retain the jobs for my people? There's definitely the grit, the resilience involved. So I think that's a good example. Honestly, I never thought so much about the association between entertainment industry and leadership, but now you give me a new connection.

So we can learn about great leadership from anywhere as long as we're open. 

Deniece Tan: Correct. I think there's a lot of elements. Pick the ones that work for you, pick the ones that speak to you, and go with it.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Fantastic. For the benefit of the listeners to share about your career journey. And the question I want to ask you is, how did you become so versatile and demonstrate that agility to reinvent and shape your career all these years?

Deniece Tan: My early career, I am a designer by education. The reason why I actually went to design school in Tamasek Polytechnic was because I didn't want to take exams anymore.

I was just sick of them. Where can I go that does not have exams and also can allow me to extend my passion or my interest in drawing. I'm not great at it, but probably in terms of attitude to embrace something. So I said, okay, let's go to design school.

So I applied through a portfolio route and I got accepted, and I took a major in advertising. When I graduated from my diploma, I was actually offered a full board scholarship for NTU for a specific course. But the course was in communication media or something, but I had no interest in that. And I thought, let's go get a job first. It was in advertising. 

So my first job was as an intern for five, six months at that time, I think I graduated quite a bad time. It was just like at the tail end of the financial crisis. So everyone around me who were full time were getting axed so basically almost every other day, someone was leaving the company. And then at that time, as an intern, you're just trying to swim upstream to get a permanent job. So it was not going to happen. 

Somebody who left gave me a job. From an intern, she just offered me a job as an art director, which helped me skip about five to seven levels that a normal person would have to take before they reached the role of an art director.

 I'm very thankful for her. She was like, okay, kid, you can do this. I'm just going to give you the role. I'm just going to give you the salary that goes with it. And then just do what you do. I just have trust in you, right? 

Somebody just took a bit of faith on me, right? And why? And I realize, sometimes there are no answers to why. I think it's the trust, right? And then thanks to her, I worked another four years for big companies. 

And then at that point of time, my personal goal was to reach the role of art director by 25, but I actually got there at 20. So what do I do now? I have to think of another goal.

So I didn't do anything for a period of time. And then after that, I decided, look, you need to do something, you need to develop yourself. It's too early to call it a day. You're not good enough to say that, Hey, I'm above everyone else. So you better get, better. Have another skill.

So I said to myself, all I have now is design skills, right? And energy. EVentually, as you get older, your energy is not going to match the younger ones. If technology and the exposure if you don't catch up, you're also not going to match.

It's not really a future proof skill. So I told myself, look, you need to learn something when when you still have the energy, when you're young and you have a bit more margin to make mistakes. You don't have to be so afraid. So, with what little savings I have, which was 6, 000.

So I put aside 6, 000 and said for the next six months, you're just going to get 1, 000 from your own money if you have to dig into it, right? And if it doesn't work out, go back to do what you're good at until the next time you feel like a quarter life crisis, then venture out again.

So I had a realistic baseline. Basically a friend of mine came and say, Hey, would you like to help me out in this business? It's a commission based business and it does bring good money. Sounds possible. It's definitely a challenge to myself, right? Because it was a sales job.

10 years back then I was not as eloquent I am today. Back then I probably am like. 100 percent more awkward and 5 percent eloquent.

So that was interesting. I got into a sales job without any sales pitch. Don't know how to sell. 

So the business that we were doing is applying for grants for companies, to the government. And it was a business no one really believed that there was such a thing, right?

I found a niche in the heavy machinery domain. The reason why no one really explored it is because it was just so difficult to write for. No one thought that it would be worth it to understand the domain. To write for equipment in that domain. And they just thought it was too high of a barrier and too low of a reward.

But actually that's not true. I told my colleagues about it. At that time, we've grown from two people to I think probably about five people. I said, look guys, we need to talk to the people who are at the fringe of Singapore. No one's going to reach out to them because they are just too far, right?

Speak to them. They definitely have their needs in acquiring new machinery or investing in new automated systems. We need to speak to them. And then after that, just, the trajectory of our business actually just took a very big upturn, and we grew to about 10ish people. And for a really small company, with not much capital put inside.

 I continued running my own business for the next seven years independently. And then during COVID, I decided to shut the business down because it wasn't having a lot of runway left. And back then I was like look, you have to learn something. The loop 10 years ago came back again and said we can't just do nothing. You have to move on with time. 

So I said, okay, I already have the business in me. I already have the design in me, the human element with me the dollars and cents with me. What do I need now, right? Okay. I need the tech, which is the enablement. The enablement part to come in.

I need to learn tech. I need to know how to marry these things together and bring my value further. So I signed up for upskilling program, and it was a six months program, but I withdrew on the fifth month because I had a job offer in health tech. So I took it. And then that was where my tech career actually started.

So I was applying for GovTech ever since I wanted to transition in tech. And then the story is I actually applied 14 times for multiple different roles. I got rejected 14 times. That's okay because I got so much rejection in my life as a business owner,.

 It's not going to hurt you. You're not going to bleed. It's really nothing. So just keep applying. So that was how I got employed here. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Did your hiring manager or the panel realize that you applied so many times? 

Deniece Tan: I think they didn't realize that I applied so many times, but I shared with them. Look, this is the 16th time I've applied. And they were like, what? Why did you even apply so many times? They didn't understand. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yes. Deniece you must write a book. . So many life lessons and precious lessons and so unusual as well, right? Like from the time when you how you even chose to go into advertising Temasek Poly was because you are sick of exams, right? I think Singapore education system is very well known for its rigorous examinations. Not everyone find the system easy to navigate, right? And. I believe then at a young age, you were very aware that I'm sick of exams. I am aware of my passion. So where can I extend that passion? 

So you went to major into advertising. It's not all blitz and glamour. There's always a dark side that people don't talk about, right?

So what surprised me was you were so clear about your passion and your strengths that you gave up a full board scholarship. Because you simply know that's not a path that you enjoy. For all listeners benefits when Deniece graduated from the polytechnic, she would get a diploma.

So in Singapore, people would traditionally prefer to get a degree. So what I feel very inspired about is that at a young age, you are able to make a decision and make that judgment call for yourself. It's degree or something that will make me potentially miserable. Maybe I need to choose what is right for me, right? I must choose something that I will feel joy. 

So your analogy of when we are young, we have energy, which is true, right? , five months, you jump five to seven grades to become the art director 20 years old. That's because you deliver, you show that you are skillful and you show that you have great work ethics. Hey, very much similar to Taeyon. 

Deniece Tan: You see the inspiration now?

Chuen Chuen Yeo: 

Okay. I'm young now. I'm full of energy. What skills do I need? There's higher tolerance for mistakes. So how can you maximize this formula to give you the necessary skills and gain the required experience? Because money can't buy experience. 

Deniece Tan: Absolutely. No.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: 

When we caught up casually the previous time, I was also wowed away because the fact that you took on the upscaling program, but technically speaking, you did not graduate. That means you were hired based on skills, not qualifications. 

 How did that opportunity come about, and was your lack of formal qualifications in any way cast any doubt at all?

Deniece Tan: I think that's a good broad question to really dive into. There is the applicant part and then there's the hirer part side. 

Deniece Tan: We all know that work, it's more practical. Can you do or cannot? There's always people who are very well packaged for sure. Can speak well, eloquently, but cannot do. 

So for example, I'm actually very grateful for GovTech. I don't recall that they even asked me about my paper qualifications. They really hired based on skill. And also they have a rigorous assessment on your competencies so that basically no matter how good a game you talk, you can't hide.

Basically in Chinese, there's this thing called the Zhao Yao Jing, the mirror that actually reflects whether if you're a demon or not. So, that skill assessment itself reveals a lot of how do you assess yourself against these markers, and how people assess you.

I acknowledge that there are certain roles that do, have value or advantages to have an MBA, but it's not representative of who you are hiring. I feel you should still be very intentional about who is going to join the team and what sort of value they can bring. That's from my perspective, right? That will be from the hirer side.

Whereas for, the applicant side, it goes down to a deeper topic. So I do have experiences mentoring younger people who are still in their university. There is more important than skills, right? You have to be agile. The pivot point itself has to be agile, not your skills. 

The pivot point has to be agile. What do you mean?

So if you notice a clock the clock hands are like that, right? But the real agile point, the moveable point of the clock hand is actually in the middle, where it's like the circle, right? So, you are the pivot point, and then this is all your achievements, your horizon and everything. This flexibility here is determined by here, so you have to be agile yourself for anything else to be moving in a way we want it to be.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So can I say you are building the skills and accumulating experience so that every time you pivot, so I'm imagining if you increase your skills and experience that finger, that clock hand becomes longer. And every time you pivot, you can actually reach further. 

It is the transferable skills that make the difference. So I love this metaphor. When we talk about this part about hirers hiring for skill, yes, understanding the mindset for every dollar they put in, they want to get maximum value.

So it goes out to that million dollar question. You can be a very well packaged. Candidate, you can come from a top school. Question is, can you do the job or you cannot do, right? I think in your earlier experiences, you have picked up enough of the communication skills to package yourself well enough and articulate that if you put in 1 dollar, you will get how many dollars, It gives you the confidence that I don't need this paper qualification. Hence I can withdraw from the program. I've learned what I need already, and I can convince them to give me the job. 

Deniece Tan: Actually, there's another part of it, right?

People do gloss over. The thing is you have to do something like a portfolio, right? Speaking to think your own horn is extremely easy, even with chat GPT nowadays. I can come up with a script. How to boast yourself and brag about yourself, right? That is going to land flat because no one is going to believe 100 percent what you have to say, right?

So how do you build that trust? How do you build that reputation? Reputation is really like product management, right? You need to also have some sort of testimonials not in the form. Oh, somebody said I was pleasant to work with. I want to join tech sector kind of example. So what do you need to show people that you understand the language of tech? There will be your upscaling certs. If you will, probably that's the lowest barrier. You need to go and learn about Agile methodologies and stuff like that.

 Actually joined several hackathons. There was an interesting one by DBS, it was called Hack to Hire. So I was not technical. The only role that was available for me is Scrum Master, right? So the interesting experience was, I just said, heck it, let's join. What can I lose? Nothing. Maybe an afternoon. So I applied and I was put into a random group of six people, and I had to work with six people in five hours to create an MVP product for DBS. 

And I don't know all of them how do you orchestrate that? We won second prize. 5, 000 people joined. There were 80 teams and we won second prize. What are the odds of that?

So we realized that the whole point of this hackathon is not really to come up with the product. They wanted to hire people and they wanted to hire people who could at the very least deliver an MVP during the said duration, which was five hours.

And a scrum master is integral because a scrum master is the one who orchestrates the coordination of all the people, it's even more important when people do not know each other, there is no trust. We are just operating based on maybe a routine, right? So we managed to deliver something that works.

We were so surprised because we were about to turn off, Skype. Hey, let's go home. There's so many people who are much more qualified than us. So when we were announced top five, we were like, never guessed it huh? 

And after that, I built a portfolio of all these hackathons that I've joined. I also built a People, kindred spirits that I met on courses. Some of them are so gracious, right? I heard you're looking for a job. Would you like to try? I have a role in my company. Would you like to try? So that itself is portfolio for your reputation. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So that was how you got the job offer during your upscaling program. 

Deniece Tan: Yeah. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Because some people will say, Oh, they are so lucky they got the opportunity, but lots of these things are not luck. Like when you talk about Taeyon, none of it is luck. It is that deliberation about what is the next step and attracting the right things to you. 

The one sentence I kept popping out in my mind, acquire enough skills. and experience with the right attitude and you excel in the exam of life. We want to excel in the exams in schools, but it is vital that we excel in the examination of life. 

Deniece Tan: I'm still in the exam of life. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Of course. And it's an ongoing journey. It's full of opportunities, right? Like even this notion about hiring for skills, right? I think like DBS did a great thing if you have the hackathon hack to hire. Because it is through such simulated work conditions that you can see truly can do it. It's not because I say I can do it at a meeting or the interview is because I truly show you how I can have everyone working together instead of at each other's throats, which happens so often.

I want to tap on your insights on working with Gen Zs, right? So you know that the Gen Zs will change the workforce in a big way. At the same time, lots of researches, surveys have found that Gen Zs are anxiety ridden, right? Facing lots of adversity. So what advice would you give to Gen Z job seekers who are now at the crossroads of coming out from school? Which job do I go to? That's one. Second question is what advice would you give to leaders? To better engage and support Gen Z

Deniece Tan: 

it is a huge topic that, that is quite interesting. I don't have a lot of experiences, but I've mentored a few Gen Zs, some starting the career, some haven't started but feel like changing their career already. They're like, oh, I studied this, but I don't feel like doing this. I don't have the formal education for this, so what do I do? 

 One of my mentees actually left a very deep impression on me. Because I felt that she was very representational of Gen Zs.

Apart from all the bad name that people give them. She works very hard to the point that she doesn't even sleep that much .She does a part time job while she's studying. Every single pocket of time, she goes for a seminar. When checking in with her, I always tell her you need to chill, man. You're like a Michelle Yeoh movie, everything all at once. What happens to you? Where is the self care? know you're confused. I know you're anxious. I know you want a high salary.

It's that recent video of asking students how much they want. And then people are like giving astronomical amounts. They face a lot of comparison. They have too much information. The information overload now, and that information sometimes it comes at a very skewed perspective.

So there are people like earning 10,000. There are also people who are freelancers. There are also people who are influencers, right? The Gen Z generation. I think they know that their time is worth something. They want to live a meaningful life. And then there are people who say, I want a meaningful job. I always ask them, what is the intention, right? What is your intention of your life? What do you want to do with your life? What opportunities give you value, meaning, and then what platform can give you the resources to achieve that value and meaning?

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Can I summarize this to make sure I understand what you are saying? For Gen Zs, they are anxiety ridden because there's information overload. Some of the information may be skewed, where they see, huh, how come this young graduate can command 10, 15, 20 thousand salary every month as fresh grad, and they get anxious because of the comparisons. 

Deniece Tan: Yes. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: That's number two. Number three is they get confused with who are they, right? What is the intention of their life? And without the appetite to do enough trial and error to gain enough evaluated experience, that is giving them more anxiety. 

Deniece Tan: Yeah. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So when you work with the Gen Z's then, three questions you will ask them, what's your intention of life? What opportunities will give you value and meaning? And number three, what are the platforms that can give you the resources you need?

Deniece Tan: Yes, correct. We can empathize, but we cannot understand.

There is recently somebody who is doing nine internships. This appeared in the news, right? Somebody did nine internships in a span of five years during his degree program. Quantity is not equal to quality. It's hard for me to understand what you can achieve in three months as an intern, the value. I'm not discounting any of the experience because it is still experience. You need to know how to make sense and how to explain, what value you bought and what value you gave. Because an internship nowadays, it's not just a place for you to learn, it's also for you to give value. 

I've come across very amazing interns. They can do Tech they are very well articulated. I'm actually very impressed. But I always wish for them to reduce a bit of the anxiety. Trust in the process. Give it some time. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: For your career, it was an outstanding story because it started with internship, then jumped many grades to art director, then you venture into entrepreneurship as a business owner for quite a number of years. And then recognizing that the runway has shortened, it's time to become an employee. So the flexibility in the mindset is so strong. And I believe a lot of Gen Z's also show such openness to the kind of life they want to create for themselves. So what's your take on how organization and workplace leaders can better engage the Gen Z's?

Deniece Tan: One thing I resonate with actually is to really suspend judgement. As people who are a bit more senior, I won't say leaders. Anybody could be more senior than an intern or a young junior staffer. Take accountability to yourself to recognize or to actually go and extract and understand what the intern or the junior employees strengths are.

Yeah. If you don't know, help them extract. Help them find out, then put them in the right place. Don't put them at any random place and then when they cannot do the job, you blame them for it because it does not make any sense. Because a lack of our due diligence does not constitute that they are poor.

It's very easy to shift blame. But let's look internally and say, what have we done for our junior staff to make it easier for them to do the right thing. You cannot put like so much obstacle course and then suddenly expect them to be top commando. It's unrealistic. Before anything, look at ourselves. What are we doing? 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So this brings this conversation to a perfect close because you speak about bringing back the human element into our workplace. I was in a workshop the other day on the art of communication, and I was talking about advancing your quality of listening and two things I urged all participants to try to build. Suspend judgment and increase curiosity. I think these two things alone would change your results, and this is what exactly you are talking about. For us, it's very easy to label, to stereotype and dismiss them, right? The reality is none of the workplaces can survive without Gen Zs.

 It's a hard fact. Don't put them in some random place. Empathize that they are trying to figure their life out. Ask them what will be meaningful, valuable to them and put them in the right place. Don't just put it in some random place and then set them up for failure. They just can't grow this way. 

 I learned a lot. Personally, I am very inspired by your agility, 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: I can see how you are a leader people would love to work with and work for. Just based on the empathy, wanting to bring human centricity, it will speak a lot about who you are as a person and bring out the best in others as well. So it's a pleasure to have you on this show, Deniece.

So thank you so much for your time.

Thank you. Thank you.