Ian Choo: It's just that we don't know, where we need to go. We just don't know where we are at this point in time. And sometimes that leads to getting frantic and then then that might lead to micromanaging or just not knowing what to do at all. 

Chuen Chuen: Welcome to agile leaders conversations. This is a podcast where we invite human centered professionals and leaders to share what it means to lead in today's workplaces. From their personal stories, find out the greatest learning that guides them through disruption and forge a better way forward. Their insights will maximize your leadership potential and unlock possibilities for a better future. My name is Yeo Chuen Chuen. I'm the author of leaders people love, a guide for agile leaders to creating great workplaces and happy employees. I'm delighted to have you listen in today. 

My guest today is Ian Choo. Ian is a passionate people developer with a keen interest in leadership practices that work in a real world. 

In his career in HR spanning over 14 years, he has co-created unique developmental experiences for many. 

Welcome to the show, Ian. Thank you for making time for this conversation. To start off, tell us about yourself, your name, what you do, and why you do what you do. 

Ian Choo: For sure. Hi Chuen, thank you so much for the introduction. Really appreciate that you gave the opportunity for us to have this conversation.

First and foremost, my name is Ian. I have been in learning and development professional for a large part of my career. I spent about 12 years in this space. And prior to that doing a lot of talent acquisition work with big brands, pharma companies at the executive level. 

Why I pivoted from talent acquisition or executive search into learning was because I had an opportunity back then into Workforce Development Agency, WDA.

 It was centered around a very human environment particularly when it comes to the work itself. And I come from decent schools, but at the same time, I wasn't always the best student. So to me, it was the opportunity to really look into the minds of people that delivered learning and through that, how then can we hone others and build them up. 

I think a lot of the things that I do really stems from the people that I've interacted with throughout my learning years. And I have to say that instead of going into teaching, I decided to go into adult education.

So I think that's also very exciting to see that the difference between androgyny as well as pedagogy. So that's a little bit about me. 

Chuen Chuen: Awesome. So you are one of those people I know we will be able to click. First, that's a career pivot. So I pivoted from teacher in schools to now adult learning, right? Adult education in all forms. Pedagogy is for classrooms. How do you help students? Young people learn academic content. Androgyny is how do you help adults learn. For listeners tuning in today, you might find Ian's name very familiar.

That's because in episode two with Syukri Azman, this is the exact Ian Choo, Syukri mentioned in his story about how working with Ian brought out one of the best sides of him. 

But today the conversation is about Ian and we will bring Syukri in later. So Ian, when you think about a leader people will love. Who's the first person that comes to your mind? 

Ian Choo: That's a very interesting thought. The leader that I loved was a person from Workforce Development Agency. His name is Shafi. And till now we're still friends, very close friends. And one of the reasons why I say this is because, not only was he very kind. He was someone that was able to relate despite our age difference. Very relational. He was a fantastic listener. And at the same time, he was more than just a manager. And he taught me so much about myself. Not just the work, but myself as I journeyed through my time with him as my leader. 

So one of the things that I remember us doing was that he would always prep me before we went for meetings. And we used to go to SMRT, SBST, because we were looking after the public transport frameworks and he would go in, make sure that I was ready before we go into the meeting. During the meeting when I was stumped, he was always there to support me. And at the same time at the end of the meeting, he'll give me a pat on the back and say, Hey, Ian, you did a really good job.

 As we are waiting for our transport back home, he will have conversations outside of the workplace. And that really resonated with me, being very relational as a leader. 

Chuen Chuen: And Shafi also set you up for success. Can I say that? 

Ian Choo: Yes, you can. He did all that he could to make sure that all the barriers were set aside. He removed a lot of barriers for me during my work and it allowed for a lot of success. 

Chuen Chuen: Great. I'm curious about those post meeting conversations, right? He would look out for what you did great in. What about areas for improvement? Did he mention them? And if he did, how did he mention them, so that it builds your confidence instead of tearing you down? 

Ian Choo: I love that question. This is something that I take with me all the time. People talk about the sandwich method. You give you something good, the meat of the thing, and then you end up with something good again.

When there was no tension, when the environment was perfect for us to really have that conversation. And usually after these meetings, we are exhausted, right? We're like, Oh my gosh, I just finished like a, what, two hours validation session with a whole bunch of subject matter experts. And half the time they talk about things I don't even understand, but we're just typing it there. And we come out of that. We'll sit down, have a coffee just take a breather. And as we are sitting there, he'll go through and he'll ask me questions like, how do you think that went? I think he asked a lot of powerful questions that allowed me to reflect on what went on and when I spoke back some of these things that I observed during the meetings. He would then say, yeah, I thought that was a really good one. Or, in this area, you could have done ABC. What do you think? And it was always about me as individual as a person. And he didn't wait three months, six months down the road to give me feedback.

It was always consistent, always on time, on spot. He never laid blame. So I think that really helped me to grow as a person, as an individual, as a leader. Because he had a certain level of temperance, the ability to manage his emotions, even though it may have been very high stakes during the meeting.

And that to me was something that I take along with me throughout my leadership journey so far. Yeah. 

Chuen Chuen: I know you have not read my book because it's not on the market yet (at the time of recording), but I am glad that what you are saying is exactly what I've written in my book as well, which then means that my observation of what works is practicable, right?

It's a further validation that what I observe and what I recommend to leaders indeed does work in the real world. I talked about the sandwich. I also talked about, okay, there are plenty of complaints about the sandwich and why it doesn't work. So I practice a modified version of the sandwich framework, which based on what you are sharing, Shafi also practiced that and he did it very well.

Number one, research has shown best time to give feedback is informal and prompt. Don't wait until three months later, people will have forgotten. 

Number two, he will start with asking, what are your observations? What do you notice? Your self assessment of how that delivery went, right? Be it's a meeting or a validation session. And then when you share your observations, he would build on what else he had noticed to either validate further or give a very constructive feedback. 

Two things stood out. He would say, at this juncture you could have done this versus at this juncture you should have done this. The word should a lot of times would make people feel like Oh, I've done something wrong. I'm not good enough versus when the word choice is could. 

Ian Choo: I love what you just mentioned, Chuen. And just to add to that, I think as a precursor to this feedback is that the reason why I took it so was because we already had such a fantastic relationship to start with. So I think it's that common ground that we had that helped us to really connect.

Chuen Chuen: That's very good. Earlier you spoke about the difference in age and clearly the difference in the position. So I'm wondering for you, how would you describe the power difference between you and Shafi? And how do you even navigate this fine line? 

Ian Choo: That's a really good point. I think the places where I personally thrived in the most was when I knew this person was a senior, and I could look to that person and say, hey! One day I'm going to grow up to be like this person, and therefore, it allows me to be in the shoes of that individual. But at the same time, I think there are certain commonalities, certain values that both individuals have overlaps in. 

During our coffee chat, sometimes we talk about work itself and how we can better navigate. Through this opportune moments, we actually be able to suss out strategies together. And that gives us an alignment when it comes to the approach that we take at work. And I think this alignment is so powerful because it comes to a point where I don't even need to say something for Shafi to know what I'm thinking and vice versa. We're connecting on an emotional level as well. And that really helps when it comes to, executing work and becoming a more high performance team. 

Chuen Chuen: That's where the vibe check comes in, right? It's the vibes and the way in which we connect with one another. Doesn't mean that we have to constantly share our personal stuff if we are very private nor do we pry into people's privacy. So develop the intuition to see how you can connect intellectually and emotionally, while it is too comfortable for both of you.

One thing you say that stood out to me, it is the series of little conversations that created a powerful alignment, like in that ecosystem, you are different individuals, yet you have that common ground, common goal.

I want to dig a little bit about Syukri's (Ep 2) experience with you. Because the way you describe the workplace is definitely very human centered. And it nurtures that culture of learning so that we can achieve excellence. We know there was that one time where he wasn't quite sure whether he could deliver the program on his own as a newbie in the company. So would you share a little more about what went on in your mind as his manager at the time? 

Ian Choo: He's so humble to say that. Yeah, because to be honest, when recruiting for his role back then, one of the things that stood out for me at the very start was his ability to connect with people. And I could tell his passion through just the things that he was saying and in fact, his life experiences. 

You look back at what he's done. He's been on the stage before, he does presentations. During the interview, I gave him a pair of shoes and I told him, sell me this pair of shoes. Like wolf on wall street right, except that it was like a pair of shoes. I left him. Five minutes later, I came back. I saw him googling on his phone. Number one, he was very resourceful. Secondly, he was very articulate when he spoke about the pair of shoes. He didn't just talk about the pair of shoes. He spoke about the emotions, about how you feel when you wear that pair of shoes, what are the features and the benefits of the pair of shoes and how then it's so unique to an individual and how well can fit someone. 

And from that experience that I had with him, I knew he was ready from the get go. So the other thing that I needed to do was to just feed him with a bit more technical knowledge. Cause he had the first facilitation skills. He already knew what he needed to do. Competency was there. So the next step was really how can he connect with the products, and as well as the service level that we were looking at. And he could do that very easily. 

 There were many occasions where he was seated in the trainings that I was delivering. There were times that he took over. We co facilitated on a couple of occasions, and then he had then run a couple of those programs in Singapore. And then when it came down to the point where I told him. Okay, let's go, let's go overseas, let's do a session in Malaysia. 

On that day itself, at 6:00 AM we were supposed to meet at the M R T station. At 2:00 AM in the morning my wife water bag broke. I texted him, Syuk. I'm sorry. You gonna have to do this by yourself, but I know that you're ready. Just go for it. Whatever is, let me know how you go. And then, It just happened. He woke up he saw the message, he texted me, Ian, don't worry, I got this. Very confident. Although he was probably shaking inside. And then he went ahead. 6am when my wife was on the bed, struggling, gripping to my hand, I texted him, I said, Syuk, how was it? How did it go? Are you there yet? He said, yeah, I'm here. All getting ready. Store's going to open soon. And I'm just going to run with it. 

As my kid came out at 10 a. m. Happy mom and babies were okay. I texted him back. He said, Hey, how are you going? He said, it went amazing. Just going to walk around here, hang out with the people here, get a sense of how it's like, and he achieved whatever he needed to achieve. And there was no turning back from there because after that he went on to take on training for the rest of Malaysia. He took on training for the rest of Indonesia. So I really entrusted him. That was a pivotal moment for him to build that confidence within himself. And that really helped him to really just fly. I had 100 percent trust that he could do it. He was such a great networker. He was able to connect with people on the fly, and I saw the potential in him. 

Chuen Chuen: What you're describing is also one of the types of leaders I described in my book. I have met many leaders in my life. Some of them, they make you feel like they're like these thick glasses with this like checklist and they are catching you.

Oh, this is wrong. Oh, that is wrong. There are leaders who give me this vibe and you just feel that it's so dangerous. So unsafe, but the leaders who have utterly changed my life and my perception about myself are exactly the kind of leader you were to Syukri. You see the potential in him before he even saw in himself. Before he himself believed in it. 

Because you knew what to look out for. You knew what were the essential skills that will make a difference in this role that you're hiring for. And you knew what knowledge gap, experience gap he needed to fill, and then you have full confidence that he's able to deliver. What are they good at? Where do they want to go? That's so essential. On that day, when your children were born, another Syukri was born as well.

Ian Choo: 

I love how you say that. 

 I was never confident. I always doubted myself, but to have dream makers enter our lives and tell you that, Hey, you got this. I trust that you got everything you need. You will make it work. That means a lot. It is true there's no turning back now. Look at what Syukri is doing today. 

Ian Choo: Absolutely. He's doing so amazing. still am his number one fan because of the sheer amount of energy that he puts into everything that he does. I think you can't take a passion out of a man. 

My leader, Sean who was then the HR director for Southeast Asia and now he's chief HR in Hearts on Fire and he gave me the autonomy to lead my team as well the way that I needed to. And he just gave very clear directions. This is what I need you to do. Go do it. I empower you. I trust that you have the potential, the capability. Just get it done. And in a similar light I used the same principles of leadership on Syuk and it worked. And I think it's very fundamental. 

It becomes more of a law of leadership where you're able to see more of a person than they can see of themselves, like what you mentioned. And they can then be able to maximize or unleash their potential. Very exciting to see where Syukri can go from here cause there's still so much more. 

Chuen Chuen: Yes. And he has many years. Yes. One of the things that was very funny in the episode, I talked about this movie, Forrest Gump.

And then he's what, which movie is that? Different 

era? 

Ian Choo: Exactly! He mentioned. I was like oh my gosh, don't reveal my age, okay? Wait, but 

Chuen Chuen: because Forrest Gump, I know we are roughly the same age. 

Ian Choo: I know Forrest Gump. Life's like a box of chocolates. 

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. Okay. So in my book I talk about the misguided developer, which means they do want to help people succeed and develop, but they try to beat them into shape and turn them into mini versions of themselves.

 When you hired Syukri, you saw his strengths, you knew what are the gaps, there is a different facilitation style. All facilitators have a different style. Like you, me, him, I'm sure all different. How did you navigate this tension between, I think this way to facilitate is better versus, okay, let him shine. His style is different from mine and it works anyway. How do you navigate this tension? 

Ian Choo: like the word that you use, tension. For me, it was adapting to his style. I believe that everyone has their own style or personality. 

And to me, ultimately it's about the customer and the customers are the people. The classroom, on the shop floor, people that we are engaging, depending on the work that we do. And what I saw was sparks in the visual, vocal, verbal of the people that he engaged. And that to me gave me the confidence that regardless of how we facilitate, as long as we're able to spark different angles to an individual, because we are all multi dimensional beings.

We're not just one dimension and maybe he connects with the heart, whereas I connect with the head. When you connect with people, maybe you connect with everything. And I think we are able to connect differently, but at the same time achieve similar outcomes. So to me initially, the tension that I had was that, Hey, this guy is he's just saying whatever he wants to say that comes to mind.

And that helps, especially when it comes to connecting with people. Borderline grey area sometimes. But the messaging is right. He's got the right intentions and that to me gave me the confidence that regardless of where he's at, whatever country he's in whatever he says, people will just accept it because the intention is right.

 This is a perfect illustration.

Chuen Chuen: From the leaders, people love global survey, I've also found something really contrasting and interesting and also in a way alarming, right? So in the survey, we ask participants, what are the most undesirable behaviors from managers? Top two that emerged that got about 50 percent of the votes each. Micromanaging and dictates how I do my work. Lack of clarity and direction. These are opposing, right? So how much instruction do I give such that I overdo it. I micromanage. Then how little do I need to give? So it's is it too much, too little? What is just right? So your unpacking of what is like for you helps people understand what is the most important thing when we deliver any piece of work. So for you it's the customers and the intention, these two things are the most important.

If we are very clear, we are aligned, then it's very easy to get that sweet spot so that we are not overdoing it and we're not underdoing it as well. 

Ian Choo: Absolutely. I like how you succinctly just narrowed it down these two elements. I had a coach that I used to speak to, and he always used to say that simple is not easy. And actually narrowing it down to what exactly we need to do. I think sometimes as leaders, one of the biggest challenges is to align what you want to do versus what the business needs. And moving to a more leadership management strategy, it's always thinking about alignment between the business's mission, its vision and how when we design our teams or curate initiatives, there is that requirement to align it and always go back to basics and back to that messaging of what does that mission and vision look like? So I really like what you just shared about simplicity, but simple. It's not easy. 

Chuen Chuen: Indeed. And that's what we all need in the many corporate leaders. They need this because the number of things that's clamoring for our attention is growing exponentially. And if we don't curate and declutter, we get pulled in so many directions that we have no sense of where we are going at all.

I have this quote in my book. It's from Winnie the Pooh. 

Ian Choo: Oh, I love Winnie the Winnie the Pooh. 

 The line says, I'm not lost. It's where I am that is lost. So we need to go back to the first principles, cleaning up so that we remain strategic. 

Ian Choo: Yes, and a lot of times I feel as well that, now that you mentioned this. I love that quote, by the way. It's just that we don't know, where we need to go. We just don't know where we are at this point in time. And sometimes that leads to getting frantic and then then that might lead to micromanaging or just not knowing what to do at all. And I think that's one of the reasons why people tend to also find that a lot of the senior leadership, in the DISC terminology, very high D's. They need to be that light, that compass, that lighthouse for others and be able to shine that light so effectively. 

Don't be a laser. Be light that shines towards a certain direction. And I've seen success in that. And through the concept of continuous improvement, you know where you're headed. And you just keep on refining that piece. 

 On the other aspect of wellness. Burnout. One of the things that I tell all the teams that I've led is beware the burnout monster.

Always look out for that because if our cup is not full, how can we overflow and provide for others? 

Chuen Chuen: I talk about this further in my book, under the chapter, if you had only one match. Because a lot of leaders, we are hungry, ambitious, then we say, Hey, that's such a fantastic idea. Let's go do it. But that just one more idea is going to snowball. It's going to grow. So then we don't kill off the idea. That is for sure. The strategic question to ask ourselves, just for sustainable excellence. Is this a good time? Do you have the capacity? Because we don't wanna say yes and then we buy off bigger, then we can chew, and then we have to pay a very heavy price.

Yes. So if you had only one match left , that will help you exercise the choice. 

Ian Choo: That's a brilliant analogy. I love that. That's so good. 

Chuen Chuen: What's one lesson you believe leaders today must learn sooner better than later? 

Ian Choo: What's really critical, especially in this day and age is to understand that we have many different generations in the workplace, and Gen Z versus millennials versus Gen X, Y, we all come with very different experiences.

But if you look back at the fundamental human needs, it's always the same. It's about wanting to be understood, to be cared for, to have a voice and be recognized. So I think to all leaders out there, I think one of the most important things is to recognize where the work is coming from. The people that are putting in the effort, as well as those people that are leading the charge because ultimately those that are on the ground are the ones that see more than most.

And as leaders, I think it's important to continue to engage those on the ground to widen your perspective because what at the macro level and what at the operational level can be so different. There's a huge disparity and being able to bridge that gap requires a very strong desire to want to listen what's on the ground.

And I've seen this at the workplace, and I continue to see it that the best leaders are the ones that are closest to their teams. They have strong relationships that are open to conversation, dialogue and are able to put out a shared vision for the team. 

In a crux, I think if there was one thing that all leaders need to know is to be able to understand the differences, but know that we are one and the same and to be able to listen effectively so that we are able to drive towards the same direction. 

Chuen Chuen: That's where the middle managers, which is like a thick layer makes the difference, right? How would I have time to connect with people one on one. That's where senior leaders need to tap on the middle layer, which means the middle managers play a big role.

We have to foster that understanding, not only between generations, but also between layers of the organization, because we all have different perspectives and in the leaders people love global survey, it came out as well, how to lead effectively in disruptive and challenging times. Be aware of challenges on the ground, which I believe what people are saying is don't sit in your ivory tower.

Ian Choo: Yes. Absolutely. 

Chuen Chuen: What's your advice to managers who are in the middle.

Ian Choo: 

I would advise them to see, what the top sees, but also to mediate between the realities of what you hear from the ground. And to be able to build this ecosystem or the picture of this ecosystem for both the top and bottom. Because we are like the conduit. We're like the middle man, between what the top ones and what the bottom can provide. We have to look at our realities and then where we want to go and then help to bridge that gap. So as a middle manager, if we put on the hat of a coach, we're actually coaching both the top as well as the bottom, so that we are able to find a middle ground that meets both our needs. From a perspective of leadership, it's the ability to communicate effectively, influence the top, always listen to the ground because that's where the source comes from. That's where the customers are. And if we are able to make the customers happy through our leadership. Then we are able to effectively meet the demands of the top leaders as well. 

Chuen Chuen: So for middle managers, many of us are at a life stage where there's tension all around. In an ecosystem, work is not the only thing in our life, right? We have aging parents, we have growing children, we have bills to pay. We can look at ourselves as a sandwiched group.

As the 'meat', or we can look at ourselves as the conduit. Connect what the top ones and what the bottom can provide. Don't just say yes to the top blindly. Be their trusted advisor. Not siding with whichever side, we are on everybody's side and we are trying to nurture the ecosystem so that they can better connect with one another and that's If we put on the coach's hat, coach both top and bottom well, influence, communicate effectively, share the expectations both ways, then we can have a very happy, meaningful and productive workplace.

Ian Choo: Absolutely.

Chuen Chuen: Thank you so much, Ian. I have gained so many insights. I particularly love the metaphors that you bring. They gives us a lot of opportunities to reframe how we see the world these days. So really thank you for all the insights. 

Thanks, Chuen Chuen. I really appreciate the opportunity as well. You gave me so much value, so many gems from just our conversation today, and I look forward to reading your new book, Leaders People Love.