Violet: Then they're like, oh no, this is a job hopper. You look at your CV, there are so many holes, they just jump from one job to the other. But I see it in a different way. 

Chuen Chuen: Welcome to agile leaders conversations. This is a podcast where we invite human centered professionals and leaders to share what it means to lead in today's workplaces. From their personal stories, find out the best of their leadership learning that guides them through disruptive times and forge a better way forward. 

Their insights will maximize your leadership potential and unlock possibilities for a better future. My name is Yeo Chuen Chuen, the author of leaders people love. A guide for agile leaders to creating great workplaces and happy employees. I'm delighted to have you listen in today. 

My guest is Violet Lim, CEO and co-founder of Lunch Actually, asia's biggest lunch dating company. 

She has appeared in over 4,500 media coverages, such as Forbes, CNN, BBC, Bloomberg, CNA and CNBC Asia. 

Thank you for being here, Violet I'm grateful that you have made time to be on Agile Leaders Conversations. So let's start off by telling us about yourself, your name, what you do, and why you do what

you do.

Violet: Thank you Chuen Chuen so much for inviting me to your podcast. I love being here. My name is Violet. I'm the CEO and co-founder of Lunch Actually, and sometimes I'm also known as Chief Cupid. What I do, as the name suggests, I'm in the dating and matchmaking industry, and why did I end up being a matchmaker? Many years ago I was working in a bank and I saw that a lot of my colleagues were single and not dating. And I've always said that they're the inspiration behind Lunch Actually, because I saw that once you start working, you miss out on the opportunity of meeting someone new.

And then I came across this concept of lunch dating, which I thought was really interesting, and I could see how this could help my colleagues. So I decided to quit my job then. I was 24 years old and then started Lunch Actually with my then boyfriend, now husband. 

Chuen Chuen: Oh, and you are in the business of creating happiness.

Violet: Yes, definitely. So I'm in the business of creating happiness or our BHAG. Our big hairy audacious goal is actually to create 1 million happy marriages. 

I would say this is a very aspirational goal. We are still very far. In fact, we don't always know because not all our clients will always tell us. However, a couple of years ago I met Mr. Murugavel, who is the founder of Matrimony in India, and after I met him, I felt very inspired because he actually achieved my B H A G every single year. So after meeting him, I feel that this is doable. It might take me a lifetime, but I think it's doable. 

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. Yeah.

I can see and feel so much passion you have about this line of business. Creating happiness, helping people find the best partners. 

So this podcast, we are talking about happiness as well, because when I started writing the book, Leaders People Love, the whole idea was, can we make work the source of happiness for everyone? And I believe a large part of it is played by managers. A large part of it depends on how people are being managed being led.

Yeah, definitely. 

So when you think about a leader people will love, who's the first person that comes to your mind? 

Violet: I thought about it and honestly I have met many leaders or even read about many leaders. But I think one leader that has really stood out to me and has made a lasting impression to me is someone that I have the opportunity to work under his organization. His name was Mr. Sunil Sreenivasan. And at that point he was actually the CEO of Citibank Singapore where I was working. He's someone that has huge presence. When he walks into a room everybody will just look at the door.

That's how charismatic he was. But I think what really impressed me are later things that he did. So every time during Chinese New Year, he will actually visit every single employee. He'll give every single person two mandarin oranges, the angbao, and it's not a big deal. It's not a difficult thing to do, but I think it's really the thought behind it. The fact that he takes the time to meet every person and to wish, them during the time of, the year where they celebrate Chinese New Year.

And he would also organize a lot of breakfast to really meet people from different parts of the bank. People from different levels because he really wants to be on the ground to understand what is happening on the ground.

But I think my closest encounter with him was actually when I was about to leave the bank. I joined citibank as a management associate. And in order to stay on in the program, I actually have to go through seven different papers and I have to pass all of them. The passing mark is quite high.

I think it's about 75%. So unfortunately I passed some of them and then I failed two of them, I was given another opportunity to take the test again, but unfortunately I failed again so that was actually quite challenging. I think that was biggest personal failure, at that point in my life. So unfortunately I have to leave the program. 

 So Mr. Sunil, he actually do all the exit interviews. So I met with him and then he was saying to me, do you still want to stay in the bank? Is this something that you would to do? And I told him that, yes, definitely. I've really enjoyed working here and I would love to continue to stay here. 

 Can you imagine I'm this mere management associate, and he's is the CEO and he say okay, I can see that you are very sincere. I can see that, you really wanna stay on, I can see that you are able to contribute. Okay, I'll find you another job. And he actually did. He worked with HR and found me another job and I became the first management associate in the HR department because I actually studied hr.

So I think he is someone that I feel really walks the talk. He's someone that really cares about his associates and every single person matters. And he really helped me decide or mold me to become the leader that I wanted to be. 

Chuen Chuen: And I can see how creating human-centered workplaces is a core part of you based on this experience alone. The consistency in connecting with people, that's what I'm hearing very strongly, from shaking everybody's hand at the cubicles, giving the mandarin oranges. I'm sure it comes with some very sincere greeting as well. If he found it a chore, he would've done it in a slip shod way, but it didn't, the fact that you still remember it up to today meant that the handshake was firm. The exchange of words was very positive. And not just that, you were the management associate who didn't clear the paper twice. 

And yet he did not give up. Yes, he did not give up because every single person counts. Yeah. And this is what I always tell the leaders that I coach. Leaders play a huge role. We are a very powerful figure in many people's life. One word, one look, one action. One question we asked or we did not ask can change someone's life. Yeah. 

What happened after you joined the HR department? 

Violet: I was there for another maybe seven to eight months, and subsequently I came across the concept of lunch dating. That's how I decided to quit the bank and then started lunch. But it was quite sad because after that, he moved on from Singapore. He went somewhere else, and subsequently, he passed away because of an illness. So that was really sad.

Chuen Chuen: But it's good to hear. It must have been many years ago, right? 

Violet: Oh, yes. Many years ago. Lunch Actually has already been around for 19 years.

Chuen Chuen: Wow. Many years ago. And so that is the effect of a leader people love on others. It shapes how they see life, how they lead others as well. 

So today in your capacity as the CEO of Lunch Actually, what have you learned about leadership that you try to pass on to others?

Violet: One of the things that I've learned about leadership is actually allowing people to fail. A lot of times as leaders, okay, I know how to do this, and then if I wanna see someone fall into a hole, then obviously I'm gonna stop them from doing it. But I realized that sometimes, as much as maybe help things to move faster, save the company a bit of money 'cause you're just going to , just stop people from making mistakes. I feel that doesn't really help them to grow in their role or even grow as a person.

And I think ultimately that's also going to stop them from being able to take risk. Because ultimately if everything I do, I just need to check with my manager and then manager will say yes or no, I don't even need to think about it. Or before I make a mistake, my manager will say no, don't do that. I've done that before and that doesn't work. It's just very different. When you make the mistakes yourself and you learn from it. 

Chuen Chuen: So, weighing the cost and consequence here. If we try to prevent people from falling into a hole because it's faster, it saves time, it saves money. Are we also robbing them of the opportunity to learn a priceless life lesson? 

Violet: Yes. 

Chuen Chuen: I used to work with boss. He was a CEO in the company. The first company I worked in after I left my teaching career. He's not trained in education, but he's so passionate about education business. And one thing he said still, I can still remember too today. He wanted all franchisees around the world to teach in a certain way so that the students can learn through discovery.

And he said, we must not take away the joy of discovering something for the very first time. Yeah. So that's why we need to coach our franchisees to use a coaching approach to help the young people discover the joy of learning. So this one I can resonate with it so much. 

What about employees who want you to tell them the solution. I'm not sure whether you saw this illustration. Maybe a person is drowning and the hand is peeking out from the water and then calling for help, help, but the manager, instead of pulling the person out of the water, will goes through a high five with a person.

Good job, keep trying. We're letting them try things out, but they're actually struggling. How do you make that balance? 

Violet: Think maybe just going back to this analogy or this comic that you are saying. So I think the way that I approach it is that rather than maybe just pull them out immediately, I might give them a float.

Because I give them a float, that means, they will still not , obviously drown. Yeah. They're still safe, they're still treading water. But at the same time it just helps them to learn in that process. So I think that's very much the kind of approach that I take, but of course I agree with you.

 We also need to understand the personality and characteristics of our employees or our associate or team members as well. I'm a big believer of D I S C personality test. I love it. We use it in our company. So different personality dominant, influential, steadiness all they really behave differently and they also need different level of support.

So I think definitely different approaches for people with different personality, but ultimately, what I want to be doing with my team members is that I do not want situation or relationship where they're just constantly coming me to get the answers. Because I think that's not very helpful. If that is the case, all I do the whole day is just sit there and just answer questions, right? Which doesn't make sense. 

I usually want to be training them or giving them a chance to eventually be able to come to a solution by themselves. Of course, it will take time. Maybe in the beginning they coming to me, me asking them some questions, coaching them and then they coming out with the solutions. The more you work with someone, the more they understand the company. The more they understand the culture, their bosses then we just get more and more aligned. And I think eventually, we are just totally on the same page and because the decision making has been so calibrated. 

Chuen Chuen: And it's an ongoing process, right? The way you engage with them you are very clear about what you want as a leader, how you want to be supported. You're also highly aware of the various personality types. Yes. I'm curious, other than DISC, does your team also do the Clifton strengths or that's only for yourself? 

Violet: Yes, we do Clifton Strengths as well. It's also one of my favorite because I feel that is something that focus on the strengths and not the weaknesses which I think makes a lot of sense. We only have that many hours a day, right? We might as well spend the time developing on our strengths. So I love that. It's something that we do with our team members, especially on the leadership team level, and it has been very helpful to understand and support each other better in our work as well.

Chuen Chuen: A lot of times the danger is when they learn a leadership lesson, and they apply indiscriminately. That's where the situation in the comic would appear. Yes. So be able to discern. It's the same as when we tell employees or associates don't come to me for answers. If they take it all the way to the other extreme, then there may be a burning issue, and you will never know about that until too late. So these are lessons that are too dangerous to be generalized. That's why I encourage leaders to adopt a stakeholder centered approach.

One thing I picked up from you, which I really love, is you ask them what is it that they need? Throw them a float. If you ask for permission, I have this suggestion for you, or I have this framework. Do you need some help? And if they say, no, I don't want, okay, fine. By all means, let them go and figure it out a little bit more. But they know that help is always available. 

Violet: Yes, definitely. 

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. So supporting people the way they need is always very important. When dealing with the multi-generational workforce, what do you think employees today they want? 

Violet: Our workplace, we have this built-in element of fun because a lot of people, when you think about matching people, bringing people together it's a fun thing, right? So I think that's something important, but at the same time, we do spend a lot of time building a culture of fun and building a culture of connectedness because I think these are things that are very important to the younger generation, and things like meaning as well why are they doing this?

Because I'm here to make money no longer cuts it. A lot of time, for the younger generation, unlike in the past where your family is waiting for you to bring food back to the table, that sort of thing. For the younger generation, there's no such expectations on them.

So I think they're always looking for a role or a profession where they are making a difference. I think that's something that's very important to them. Again, I think very fortunate for us, it's a very clear meaning to our work, because obviously we're here to create happy marriages. We are here to help people find love. 

But another thing that I also have come to realize about the younger generation as well, is that, it's very normal for people to just stay on for a job for a short time and then move on. And I think I've seen in my generation or older generation, and then they really frown upon this and then they're , oh no, this is a job hopper. You look at your cv, there are so many holes, they just jump from one job to the other. 

But I just see it as something positive. Because I think that if someone has successfully been able to move from job to job, and every time securing a good job, that means this is a person who is very good in what they do.

So I see it in a different way. I always talk to new hirees, or new people who join to just find out from them, what is their objective? Because I think ultimately it's really about aligning goals. So it's okay, if they are here to stay for two years or they're here to stay for three years. Let's just work out a career plan for them.

 And if both of this can align, it's a great partnership. Definitely different generations have different thinking, different thoughts different mindset. And it's okay, as long as we just really understand where they're coming from and if we are able to align common goals. With that, diversity in terms of mindset as well as contribution really make our workplace much better and help us to achieve our company objective even faster.

Chuen Chuen: So what you are expecting is as long as everyone at any stage, if they choose to be in lunch, actually can be aligned with the company objectives. It's okay to be different. 

Violet: Yes. Definitely. 

Chuen Chuen: And it is okay even if they tell you, I'm just here for one year. 

Violet: I would rather they tell me that, honestly.

Chuen Chuen: That's awesome. Because a lot of people who look at job hoppers, oh my God, job hoppers are the most troublesome people. They're not loyal. They're fickle minded. They're not here to do hard work. And what is this mindset about having fun at work? Why is it wrong to have fun at work?

Do you mean we have to make ourselves very miserable for 30, 40 years and then after that we retire and then wait to die? Oh my God. I just cannot deal with that thinking at all. Don't be too quick to label the various generations.

 What about the clients that you work with? Has that been what trying to bridge this generational gap?

Violet:  It has been quite interesting because when I first started a business 19 years ago, one of the things that I was really worried about is that, is someone gonna call me out? Because I was 24 years old. Everybody's older than me, right? So I always worried is anybody who call me out and say you are 24 years old. What do you know about matchmaking? But interestingly, nobody did. So it's also made me realize that a lot of it is in our own head. I realized that If you are able to show that you're competent. If you're able to show that you're able to deliver results, people really don't care. That's what I realized. Now we have clients who are in their twenties, thirties, forties, fifties. I think our oldest client is probably in their seventies.

So it's really wide range of ages, and a lot of different generations. After being in the business for a while, people who come to us, they respect us for the staying power that we are still around 19 years later. And as a result, they know that we know what we are doing.

We have the skillset. We have the expertise, we have the credibility to do what we do. So of course, now, and then you do have some clients who say that, oh, I think your consultant is too young. I, I don't think I can connect with her. Or then we are , okay we understand, we are able to match you up with maybe another dating consultant whom you might feel more comfortable with. But I would say that it is usually more in the minority. We don't actually get that request a lot. 

Chuen Chuen: For people to come to you, they're already quite open. And also the associates you have are also very open. Because they're not going to look at a profile of a person. Wow. 70 years old. I don't think I can find a match. So again, the awareness of labels. Are we subconsciously doing it. If we believe somebody at a certain age should not, must not, or will not find love, then we will work less hard to make it happen, which then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Violet: Yes. Definitely. So on that note I think, maybe a couple months ago, we successfully matched someone who's in their sixties. Yeah. So that was , Awesome. Yeah, so I think what you say that being a matchmaker, one of the main things is not to be judgmental.

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. Being able to suspend judgment. There must be a lot of training on unconscious bias and suspending judgment.

Violet: Yeah, we spend a lot of time on training definitely. Or just, sharing best practices or sharing stories. Because honestly, this is not a very easy industry and it gets very personal as well.

Chuen Chuen: When I was writing this book, I also started a global survey, I asked responders other than effective managers, what else increases their happiness at work? Culture came out. Having work friends came out. Having people who care about me, empowering me to do work my way also came out. You're doing all these and that culture of fun, connectedness and meaning is so strong in fact. I think you are probably the first C E O I've spoken to who says their culture must include elements of fun.

So that kind of training and opportunity that you have created for your team. Now I also think maybe I should join Lunch Actually. 

Are you hiring? 

We're always looking for the right people to join us. 

It's really meaningful work, but it's also by no means easy. 

Violet: Yes, definitely. Yeah. And I think we also do not want to sell something. Everything is rosy. So in fact, during interviews, we do give a very realistic description of the job. And in fact, we do role plays as well to just give them an understanding that yes, of course it's awesome. It's amazing. You feel top of the world when you match someone successfully and then they tell you that they are getting married, or having their first kid and things like that. But at the same time, there are also times where it's really challenging and difficult as well. So we do not want to just wrap it up in a nice package. And then when they come in, then they're , oh, why is it not what I thought it is as well? 

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. So when things get rough, how do you help associates bounce back with that mental resilience? 

Violet: First and foremost, training is very important because if we are able to do role plays with them, we are able to train them before they even encounter a tough situation that would already give them that cushioning to be able to take it a lot better. But of course after that we talk to them, after having a very tough call with a client for example. We'll be okay, just go and get coffee. Just go and chill. Go walk around and whatever, right? Or if needed, we will talk to them. Just letting them know that it's not personal, because I guess sometimes it just feels very personal, but we always remind them that it's not you. Their anger is not directed you. Maybe they just had a bad day. We just talk them through it and just letting them know that whatever it is, we have got your back. 

We also have seen situations where we know that maybe the team member right now is not able to deal with this. Of course, managers would just step in and say, Hey, don't worry about it. Let me handle this client. Or even at some points where things really get quite escalated, I will also step in and just say, okay, just arrange a meeting for me with the client, and, I'll just talk to the client directly, and see where we can go from here. So I think just everybody knowing that someone's got their back and they are not in this alone. And I think that really help them manage the situation. 

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. That makes them feel safe. So I can confidently say you, the managers, they have that emotional capacity to cope with the difficult emotions as well. It's the ecosystem of support that we must build for ourselves, because we have to remember that we work with human beings. There are ups and downs, right? Leaders must play this role.

Violet: Yeah, definitely. Ultimately, when something works or does not work, the responsibility or the accountability falls on the leader, right? For me, I always feel very comfortable to just say that, okay, it's on me because I feel that when I just take accountability for it, then I feel that I'm able to make changes because I feel that sometimes when we not take accountability for it, then we just end up being the victim.

Being in a very victim or blaming others, a mindset that's not very empowering and then you just end up feeling that you can't move forward. I think there's something that has worked very well for me and I noticed something that I share with my managers, and leaders as well, to help them to change that mindset because I think, some organizations, I'm sure we all have worked in those companies where when something bad happens, the first thing is finger pointing, right? 

Chuen Chuen: Yes. Exactly.  So that's why I reached out to you Violet, because when I first heard you speak at the convention, there were a few things that you touched on which were also transformational moments for me in my personal life.

One was about strengths. Another one was about being a multiplier leader. And then this victim versus player mindset. So this what I learned from Fred Kaufman. So he has this system called conscious business. That means you are always striving for mutually beneficial. Yeah.

You'll enter a negotiation knowing that you are striving for win-win. If you cannot get win-win, at least you get your next best option. Yeah. And the key preparation is having the player mindset. That player meaning we take accountability so that we can move things forward and make changes. And if we don't have the blaming culture because it's completely not safe, right? Yeah. Wow. I think it is it's great.

Your associates, how long have they been working with you?

Violet: The longest one, I think it is about 15 years, 16 years. 

Chuen Chuen:  The first time ever I resigned from a workplace, I felt I was a traitor. And it's not healthy.

Violet: Actually, I really think it's a learning journey. Have I felt being betrayed when someone who been with me for a long time resigned? Definitely! I've been there, but I'm also the type that kind of just take a step back and try and understand why do I feel this way? And after going through it, I realized it's not so much about because the person left and as a result I feel betrayed. But I think sometimes it's just maybe the way that it's being done or the time that it was being told and things like that. But I just feel after a while, just having solved these negative emotions. 

Then I realized that there's no perfect way to do it and there's no perfect timing and at the end of the day, I always look at things, what's the best thing that came out of this? What I have learned from this? The journey of, this particular associate have walked along us, there's so much to be thankful for, right?

I always prefer to hold on to positive feelings than negative feelings. But of course, are there negative feelings? There would be. I'm human. But after that I would like to process it and then just focus on the good that has come out of a journey that we work together.

Chuen Chuen: Awesome. Everything you are saying now points towards personal mastery, right? And the courage to do the deep work in ourselves. If managers first build their mental, emotional capacity to support team members in tough conversations, process difficult emotions, they first need to be comfortable with the negative emotions within themselves. To be curious about it and to understand why and to be okay with it, right? Acknowledging that being human is not weakness. Being human is being human. When we develop the ability in ourselves, we become better people. We become better leaders. 

So in Lunch Actually's 19 year history, you have been through economic ups and downs. So what are some essential leadership lessons that have increased Lunch Actually's staying power. 

Violet:  People need to know that you care. As simple as that. I think a lot of the people who have stayed with me for a long time, or people who have continued to keep close relationships with me after leaving to other places, it's that they know that I've got their back. At the end of the day, I really care about their lives, but also about their personal growth and development as well.

So I always say to them, of course, if you're gonna stay here with me for the rest of your life, that's great. I would love that. But at the end of the day, it's also about you growing as a person and also you growing in your career. And if, I'm no longer able to support you or you just don't feel that you are getting that from us anymore. It's okay. It's it's a long life.

You have to maybe make a move right now, but who knows? In future you might come back to us and with all the great lessons and great skill sets that you have acquired through the rest of your career journey, you can come back and help us make the company even better and stronger.

Chuen Chuen: So there are various considerations, right? Responsibility to shareholders. The company objectives. And then knowing that people are first and foremost a family person. Okay, hearing you say this is just a job, it's very different from an employee saying this is just a job.

 That becomes even more empowering. There's a level of healthy detachment as well. And what's most important is that they learn, grow, develop. 

You have given me two things that I've never ever heard from CEOs before. Okay. One is that we have a fun company. The whole time when you are sharing is very authentic. It is fun. The second one, this is just a job, right? We'll, never, ever be more important than your family. So if there's something happening, go. 

Violet: It really upsets me sometimes to read the news about people who didn't get to see their family members last face, because the boss or the manager say that, no, you finish your job there and you go. And it upsets me so much. I don't know, I think I'm a person that I really believe in the golden rule which is, don't do unto others what you do not want to do unto yourself.

So I think this is, as a result, it's something that I really apply in the way I run the business and the way that I manage my team as well. Because, If I don't like that happening to me, right? , why would I want to do this unto someone else? 

Chuen Chuen: True. Okay, so now, I'm gonna ask you a last question. Is your industry disrupted by AI? 

Violet: Not at the moment, but I could see the potential for it. I think AI is here to disrupt everybody, everything industry. Yeah. And that is the reality of it, right?

It's just a matter of when, how, and, and how are you going to adapt to it. So I think for us, definitely we are, exploring, what AI can do. I'm telling all of my team members, please go and look at AI. We have discussions, we have trainings on all the various AI tools out there, and I highly encourage everybody to use it because, honestly, if you can finish your work in six hours, Instead of 12 hours, why would I not want you to do that?

I'm always the type of boss, if you can finish your work and gimme the results, and you don't even need to show up at work, I'm totally fine with it.

Chuen Chuen: And it's not even for finish the work faster so that I can give you more. 

Violet: The truth of the matter, right? As a boss or as an entrepreneur, of course, someone who finished their job very fast, they give you a lot of results and then they work even harder, of course, those people would attract your attention. For sure. I know. I won't lie and say that it doesn't. But I think at the same time, I think a balance is so important because again, we are all human, we are not machines. If this person can continue performing at this pace forever, that's great. But I think to me it's also what are the consequences? 

If this person keep performing at this pace, and have no breaks and fall sick one day, or they just burn out one day. It's not going to serve me. That's why I always tell some of my top performers as well. Okay, I notice that you're not taking leave. I notice you're working very long hours. I notice you are replying emails at 4:00 AM. I appreciate it, I appreciate your hard work, your dedication, your perseverance, your passion. But at the same time, I told them straight. At the rate you are going, you'll burn out and you burning out is not going to be helpful to me. So I'm , so you know, we got to pace this a bit, right? So it's yes, continue to work hard, continue to deliver. You'll be rewarded very well, but we need to pace this so you do not burn out.

Chuen Chuen: Teach them how to pace themselves. Given the disruptive world that we live in today, what is one simple action a leader can perform every day that will make a huge difference in the long run? 

Violet: I would say, just learn one new thing. No matter how small it is. So I am a learning junkie, and I think, in my StrengthFinder learning is also one of my strengths. Yeah, just learn something new every day. Be it , reading a book, listening to a podcast, or just talking to someone and just getting a new idea.

So every day I'm just I'll be , Oh! there's something new. And sometimes I don't even know why I'm learning that, but, Eventually it will just come together and I'll be like, ah, okay. Just connecting this with that and that give me a totally different business model or gimme a totally different product or service that I can launch.

Chuen Chuen: Wow. I'm really very excited because I'm two hands up a learning junkie and the sense or wonderment. 

So it's been so good hearing from you.

You have given me two or three awesome takeaways. To me the most empowering part of our interview is, hearing how you make it a point to make work meaningful, purposeful. Creating human-centered workplaces. I'm very excited for the further success of Lunch Actually, and hope that we can catch up one day over coffee.

Violet: Definitely. Thank you so much, Chuen Chuen for having me. Chuen Chuen: Welcome to agile leaders conversations. This is a podcast where we invite human centered professionals and leaders to share what it means to lead in today's workplaces. From their personal stories, find out the best of their leadership learning that guides them through these disruptive times and forge a better way forward. 

Their insights will maximize your leadership potential and unlock possibilities for a better future. My name is Yeo Chuen Chuen. I'm the author of leaders people love. A guide for agile leaders to creating great workplaces and happy employees. I'm delighted to have you listen in today. 

She has appeared in over 4,500 media coverages, such as Fox, Forbes, CNN, BBC Bloomberg, CNA and CNBC Asia. 

Chuen Chuen: Thank you for being here, Violet I'm grateful that you have made time to be on Agile Leaders Conversations. So let's start off by telling us about yourself, your name, what you do, and why you do what 

Violet: you do.

Thank you transient so much for inviting me to your podcast. I love being here. My name is Violet. I'm the CEO and co-founder of Lunch, actually, and sometimes I'm also known as Chief Cupid. What I do, as the name suggests, I'm in the dating and matchmaking industry, and why did I end up being a matchmaker? Many years ago I was working in a bank and I saw that a lot of my colleagues were single and not dating. And I've always said that they're the inspiration behind lunch actually, because I saw that once you start working, you miss out on the opportunity of meeting someone new.

And then I came across this concept of lunch dating, which I thought was really interesting, and I could see how this could help my colleagues. So I decided to quit my job then. I was 24 years old and then started lunch actually with my then boyfriend, now husband. 

Chuen Chuen: Oh, and you are in the business of creating happiness.

Violet: Yes, definitely. So I'm in the business of creating happiness or our BHAG. Our big hairy audacious goal is actually to create 1 million happy marriages. 

Wow! 

Chuen Chuen: How far are you to the goal now?

Violet: I would say this is a very aspirational goal. We are still very far. In fact, we don't always know because not all our clients will always tell us. However, a couple of years ago I met Mr. Murugavel, who is the founder of Matrimony in India, and after I met him, I felt very inspired because he actually achieved my B H A G every single year. So after meeting him, I feel that this is doable. It might take me a lifetime, but I think it's doable. 

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. Yeah.

I can see and feel so much passion you have about this line of business. Creating happiness, helping people find soulmate, help people find the best partners. In our society today, I think it's very much needed. The women of our time, we get married later and later, and then in our society there's fewer and fewer children.

So this podcast, we are talking about happiness as well, because when I started writing the book, Leaders People Love, the whole idea was, can we make work the source of happiness for everyone? And I believe a large part of it is played by managers. A large part of it depends on how people are being managed being led.

Yeah, definitely. 

So when you think about a leader people will love, who's the first person that comes to your mind? 

Violet: I thought about it and honestly I have met many leaders or even read about many leaders. But I think one leader that has really stood out to me and has made a lasting impression to me is someone that I have the opportunity to work under his organization. His name was Mr. Sunil Sreenivasan. And at that point he was actually the CEO of Citibank Singapore where I was working. He's someone that has huge presence. When he walks into a room everybody will just look at the door.

That's how charismatic he was. But I think what really impressed me are later things that he did. So every time during Chinese New Year, he will actually visit every single employee. He'll give every single person two mandarin oranges, the, and it's not a big deal. It's not a difficult thing to do, but I think it's really the thought behind it. The fact that he takes the time to meet every person and to wish, them during the time of, the year where they celebrate Chinese New Year.

And he would also organize a lot of breakfast to really meet people from different parts of the bank. People from different levels because he really wants to be on the ground to understand what is happening on the ground.

But I think my closest encounter with him was actually when I was about to leave the bank. I joined citibank as a management associate. And in order to stay on in the program, I actually have to go through seven different papers and I have to pass all of them. The passing mark is quite high.

I think it's about 75%. So unfortunately I passed some of them and then I felt Or two of them, I was given another opportunity to take the test again, but unfortunately I failed again so that was actually quite challenging. I think that was biggest personal failure, at that point in my life. So unfortunately I have to leave the program. 

 So Mr. Sunil, he actually do all the exit interviews. So I met with him and then he was saying to me, do you still want to stay in the bank? Is this something that you would to do? And I told him that, yes, definitely. I've really enjoyed working here and I would love to continue to stay here. 

 cAn you imagine I'm this mere management associate, and he's is the CEO and he say okay I can see that you are very sincere. I can see that, you really wanna stay on, I can see that you are able to contribute. Okay, I'll find you another job. And he actually did. He worked with HR and found me another job and I became the first management associate in the HR department because I actually studied hr.

So I think he is someone that I feel really walks the talk. He's someone that really cares about his associates and every single person matters. And he really helped me decide or mold me to become the leader that I wanted to be. 

And I 

Chuen Chuen: can see how creating human-centered workplaces is a core part of you based on this experience alone. Wow, him bringing mandarin oranges. That gesture, the consistency in connecting with people, that's what I'm hearing very strongly from. Shaking everybody's hand and the cubicles. Giving the mandarin oranges. I'm sure it comes with some very sincere greeting as well. If he founded a chore, he would've done it in a slip short way, but it didn't, the fact that you still remember it up to today meant that the handshake was firm. The exchange of words was very positive. And not just that you were the. Didn't clear the paper 

twice. 

Chuen Chuen: And yet he did not give up. Yes, he did not give up because every single person counts. Yeah. And this is what I always tell the leaders that I coach. Leaders play a huge role. We are a very powerful figure in many people's life. One word, one look, one action. One question we asked or we did not ask can change someone's life. Yeah. 

What happened after you joined the HR department? 

Violet: I Was there for another maybe seven to eight months, and subsequently I came across the concept of lunch dating. That's how I decided to quit the bank and then started lunch. But it was quite sad because after that, he moved on from Singapore. He went somewhere else, and subsequently, he passed away because of an illness. So that was really 

Chuen Chuen: sad.

But it's good to hear. It must have been many years ago, 

Violet: right? 

Oh, yes. Many years ago. Lunch actually has already been around for 19 years.

Chuen Chuen: Wow. Many years ago. And so that is the effect of a leader people love on others. It shapes how they see life, how they lead others as well. 

So today in your capacity as the CEO of Lunch actually, what have you learned about leadership that you try to pass on to others?

Violet: One of the things that I've learned about leadership is actually allowing people to fail. A lot of times as leaders, okay, I know how to do this, and then if I wanna see someone fall into a hole, then obviously I'm gonna stop them from doing it. But I realized that sometimes, as much as maybe help things to move faster, save the company a bit of money 'cause you're just going to , just stop people from making mistakes. I feel that doesn't really help them to grow in their role or even grow as a person.

And I think ultimately that's also going to stop them from being able to take risk. Because ultimately if everything I do, I just need to check with my manager and then manager will say yes or no, I don't even need to think about it. Or before I make a mistake, my manager will say no, don't do that. I've done that before and that doesn't work. It's just very different. When you make the mistakes yourself and you learn from it. 

Chuen Chuen: So, weighing the cost and the consequence here. If we try to prevent people from falling into a hole because it's faster, it saves time, it saves money. Are we also robbing them of the opportunity to learn a priceless life lesson? 

Yes. 

I used to work with boss. He was a CEO in the company. The first company I worked in after I left my teaching career. He's not trained education, but he's so passionate about education business. And one thing he said still, I can still remember too today. He wanted all franchisees around the world to teach in a certain way so that the students can learn through discovery.

And he said, we must not take away the joy of discovering something for the very first time. Yeah. So that's why we need to coach our franchisees to use a coaching approach to help the young people discover the joy of learning. So this one I can resonate with it so much. 

What about employees who want you to tell them the solution. I'm not sure whether you saw this illustration. Maybe a person is drowning and the hand is peeking out from the water and then calling for help, help, but the manager, instead of pulling the person out of the water, will goes through a high five with a person.

Try things out, but they're actually struggling. So how do you make the difference? How do you make that balance? 

 Think maybe just going back to this analogy or this comic that you are saying. So I think the way that I approach it is that rather than maybe just pull them out immediately, I might give them a float.

Violet: It's I give them a float. That means, they will still not , obviously drown. Yeah. They still need to they're still safe, they're still treading water. But at the same time it just helps them to learn in that process. So I think that's very much the kind of approach that I take, but of course I agree with you.

 We also need to understand the personality and characteristics of our employees or our associate or team members as well. I'm a big believer of D I S C personality test. I love it. We use it in our company. So different personality dominant, influential, stating us or they really behave differently and they also need different level of support.

So I think Definitely different approaches for people with different personality, but I think ultimately, what I want to be doing with my team members is that I do not want situation or relationship where they're just constantly coming me to get the answers. Because I think that's not very helpful. If that is the case, all I do the whole day is just sit there and just answer questions, right? Which doesn't make sense. 

I usually want to be training them or giving them a chance to eventually be able to come to a solution by themselves. Of course, it will take time. Maybe in the beginning they coming to me, me asking them some questions, coaching them and then they coming out with the solutions. The more you work with someone, the more they understand the company better. The more they understand the culture, their bosses then we just get more and more aligned. And I think eventually, we are just totally on the same page and because the decision making has been so calibrated. 

Chuen Chuen: And it's an ongoing process, right? The way you engage with them you are very clear about what you want as a leader, how you want to be supported. You're also highly aware of the various personality types. Yes. I'm curious, other than this, does your team also do the Clifton strengths or that's only for yourself? 

Violet: Yes, we do Clifton Strength as well. Is also one of my favorite because I feel that is something that focus on the strengths and not the weaknesses which I think makes a lot of sense. We only have that many hours a day, right? We might as well spend the time developing on our strengths. So I love that. It's something that we do with our team members, especially on the leadership team level, and I think it has been very helpful to understand and support each other better in our work as well.

Yeah. 

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. Good. A lot of times the danger is when they learn a leadership lesson, and they apply indiscriminately. That's why the issue with the comic, the situation the comic would appear. Yes. So be able to discern. It's the same as when we tell employees or associates don't come to me for answers. If they take it all the way to the other extreme, then there may be a burning issue, and you will never know about that until too late. So these are lessons that are too dangerous to be generalized. That's why I want to encourage leaders to adopt a stakeholder centered approach.

One thing I picked up from you, which I really love, is you ask them what is it that they need? Throw them afloat. If you ask for permission, I have this suggestion for you, or I have this framework. Do you need some help? And if they say, no, I don't want, okay, fine. By all means, let them go and figure it out a little bit more. But they know that help is always available. 

Yes, 

Violet: definitely. 

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. So supporting people the way they need to is always very important. So Violet how many associates do you have currently working with you? 

Violet: Currently we are at about 75 people. 

That's 

Chuen Chuen: a huge team. Okay. So two areas I wanna ask, first question first. When dealing with the multi-generational workforce, what do you think employees do they want? 

Violet: Our workplace, we have this built-in element of fun because a lot of people, when you think about matching people, bringing people together it's a fun thing, right? So I think that's something important, but at the same time, we do spend a lot of time building a culture of fun and building a culture of connectedness because I think these are things that are very important to the younger generation, and things meaning as well why are they doing this?

Because I'm here to make money no longer cuts it. I think a lot of time, for the younger generation, unlike in the past where your family is waiting for you to bring food back to the table, that sort of thing. For the younger generation, there's no such expectations on them.

So I think they're always looking for a role or a profession where they are making a difference. I think that's something that's very important to them. Again, I think very fortunate for us, it's a very clear meaning to our work, because obviously we're here to create happy marriages. We are here to help people find love. 

But another thing that I also have come to realize about the younger generation as well, is that, it's very normal for people to just stay on for a job for a short time and then move on. And I think I've seen my generation or older generation, and then they really frown upon this and then they're , oh no, this is a job hopper. You look at your cv, there are so many holes, they just jump from one job to the other. 

But I just see it as something positive. Because I think that if someone has successfully been able to move from job to job, and every time securing a good job, that means this is a person who is very good in what they do.

So I see it in a different way. I always talk to new hirees, or new people who join to just find out from them, what is their objective? Because I think ultimately it's really about aligning goals. So it's okay, if they are here to stay for two years or they're here to stay for three years. Let's just work out a career plan for them.

 And I think if both of this can align, it's a great partnership. Definitely different generations have different thinking, different thoughts different mindset. And it's okay, as long as we just really understand where they're coming from and if we are able to align common goals. With that, diversity in terms of mindset as well as contribution really make our workplace much better and help us to achieve our company objective even faster.

Chuen Chuen: So what you are expecting is as long as everyone at any stage, if they choose to be in lunch, actually can be aligned with the company objectives. Its okay to be different. 

Violet: Yes. Definitely. 

Chuen Chuen: And it is okay even if they tell you, I'm just here for one 

Violet: year. 

I would rather they tell me that, honestly.

That's 

Chuen Chuen: awesome. Because a lot of people who look at job hoppers, oh my God, job hoppers are the most troublesome people. They're not loyal. They're fickle minded. They're not here to do hard work. They're here to have fun. And what is this mindset about having fun at work? Why is it wrong to have fun at work?

Do you mean we have to make ourselves very miserable for 1 30, 40 years and then after that we retire and then wait to die? Oh my God. I just cannot deal with that thinking at all. Don't be too quick to label the various generations.

 What about the clients that you work with? Has that been what trying to bridge this generational gap kind of 

stuff. 

Violet:  I think it has been quite interesting because when I first started a business 19 years ago, one of the things that I was really worried about is that, is someone gonna call me out? Because I was 24 years old. Everybody's older than me, right? So I always worried is anybody who call me out and say you are 24 years old. What do you know about matchmaking? BuT interestingly, nobody did. So it's also made me realize that a lot of it is in our own hate. I realized that If you are able to show that you're competent. If you're able to show that you're able to deliver results, people really don't care. That's what I realized. Now we have clients who are in their twenties, thirties, forties, fifties. I think our oldest client is probably in their seventies.

So it's really um, wide range of ages, and a lot of different generations. And I think, after being in the business for a while, people who come to us, they respect us for the staying power that we are still around 19 years later. And as a result, I think they know that we know what we are doing.

We have. The skillset. We have the expertise, we have the credibility to do what we do. So of course, now, and then you do have some clients who say that, oh, I think your consultant is too young. I, I don't think I can connect with her. Or then we are , okay we understand, we are able to match you up with maybe another dating consultant whom you might feel more comfortable with. But I would say that it is usually more in the minority. We don't actually get that request a lot. 

For 

Chuen Chuen: people to come to you, they're already quite open. And also the associates you have are also very open. Because they're not going to look at a profile of a person. Wow. 70 years old. I don't think I can find a match. So again, the awareness of labels. Are we subconsciously doing it. If we believe somebody at a certain age should not, must not, or will not find love, then we will work less hard to make it happen, which then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Violet: Yes. Definitely. So on that note I think, maybe a couple months ago, we successfully matched someone who's in their sixties. Yeah. So that was , Awesome. Yeah, so I think what you say that being a matchmaker, one of the main things is not to be judgmental.

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. Being able to suspend judgment. Wow. So there must be a lot of training on unconscious bias and suspending judgment all the time.

Violet: Yeah, we spend a lot of time on training definitely. Or just, sharing best practices or sharing stories. Because honestly, this is not a very easy industry and it gets very personal as well.

Chuen Chuen: When I was writing this book, I also started a global survey, so I asked responders other than effective managers, what else increases their happiness at work? Culture came out. Having work friends came out. Having people who care about me also came out. Empowering me to do work my way also came out. You're doing all these and that culture of fun, connectedness and meaning is so strong in. I think you are probably the first C E O I've spoken to who says their culture must include elements of fun.

So that kind of training and opportunity that you have created for your team. Now I also think maybe I should join lunch actually. 

Violet: Are you hiring? 

We're always looking for the right people to join us. 

Chuen Chuen: It's really meaningful work, but it's also by no means easy. 

Violet: Yes, definitely. Yeah. And I think we also do not want to sell something. Everything is rosy. So in fact, during interviews, we do give a very realistic description of the job. And in fact, we do role plays as well to just give them an understanding that yes, of course it's awesome. It's amazing. You feel top of the world when you match someone successfully and then they tell you that they are getting married, or having their first kid and things that. But at the same time, there are also times where it's really challenging and difficult as well. So we do not want to just wrap it up in a nice package. And then when they come in, then they're , oh, why is it not what I thought it is as well? 

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. So when things get rough, how do you help associates bounce back with that mental resilience. 

Violet: So I think first and foremost, training is very important because if we are able to do role plays with them, we are able to train them before they even encounter a tough situation that would already give them that cushioning to be able to take it a lot better. But of course after that we talk to them, after having a very tough call with a client for example. We'll be okay, just go and get coffee. Just go and chill. Go walk around and whatever, right? Or if needed, we will talk to them. Just letting them know that it's not personal, because I guess sometimes it just feels very personal, but we always remind them that it's not you. Their anger is not directed you. Maybe they just had a bad day. We just talk them through it and just letting them know that whatever it is, we have got your back. 

We also have seen situations where we know that maybe the team member right now is not able to deal with this. Of course, managers would just step in and say, Hey, don't worry about it. Let me handle this client. Or even at some points where things really get quite escalated, I will also step in and just say, okay, just arrange a meeting for me with the client, and, I'll just talk to the client directly, and see where we can go from here. So I think just everybody knowing that someone's got their back and they are not in this alone. And I think that really help them manage the situation. 

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. And that also makes them feel safe. That makes them feel safe. So I can confidently say you, the managers, they have that emotional capacity to cope with the difficult emotions as well. It's that circle of the ecosystem of support that we must build for ourselves, because we have to remember that we work with human beings. There are ups and downs, right? I think leaders must play this role.

Violet: Yeah, definitely. Ultimately, when something works or does not work, the responsibility or the accountability falls on the leader, right? For me, I always feel very comfortable to just say that, okay, it's on me because I feel that when I just take accountability for it, then I feel that I'm able to make changes because I feel that sometimes when we not take accountability for it, then we just end up being the victim.

I think being in a very victim or blaming others, a mindset that's not very empowering and then you just end up feeling that you can't move forward. I think there's something that has worked very well for me and I noticed something that I share with my managers, and leaders as well, to help them to change that mindset because I think. Some organizations, I'm sure we all have worked in those companies where when something bad happens, the first thing is finger pointing, right? 

Chuen Chuen: Yes. Exactly.  So that's why I reached out to you Vale, because when I first heard you speak at the convention, there were a few things that you touched on which were also transformational moments for me in my personal life.

One was about strengths. Another one was about being a multiplier leader. And then this victim versus player mindset. So this what I learned from Fred Kaufman. So he has this system called conscious business. That means you are. Always striving for mutually beneficial. Yeah.

You'll enter a negotiation knowing that you are striving for win-win. If you cannot get win-win, at least you get your next best option. Yeah. And the key preparation is having the player mindset. That player meaning we 

take accountability so that we can move things forward and make changes. And if we don't have the blaming culture because it's completely not safe, right? Yeah. Wow. I think it is it's great.

Your associates, how long have they been working with you?

Violet: The longest one, I think it is about 15 years, 16 years. 

Chuen Chuen:  The first time ever I resigned from a workplace, I felt I was a traitor. And it's not healthy.

Actually, 

Violet: I really think it's a learning journey. Have I felt being betrayed when someone who been with me for a long time resigned? Definitely! I've been there, but I'm also the type that kind of just take a step back and try and understand why do I feel this way? And after going through it, I realized it's not so much about because the person left and as a result I feel betrayed. But I think sometimes it's just maybe the way that it's being done or the time that it was being told and things like that. But I just feel after a while, just having solved these negative emotions. 

Then I realized that there's no perfect way to do it and there's no perfect timing and I think at the end of the day, I always look at things, what's the best thing that came out of this? What I have learned from this? The journey of, this particular associate have walked along us, there's so much to be thankful for, right?

I always prefer to hold on to positive feelings than negative feelings. But of course, are there negative feelings? There would be. I'm human. But I think after that I would like to process it and then just focus on the good that has come out of a journey that we work together.

Chuen Chuen: Awesome. And everything you are saying now points towards personal mastery, right? And the courage to do the deep work in ourselves. If managers first need build a mental, emotional capacity to support team members in tough conversations, process difficult emotions, they first need to be comfortable with the negative emotions within themselves. To be curious about it and to understand why and to be okay with it, right? Acknowledging that being human is not weakness. Being human is being human. When we develop the ability in ourselves, we become better people. We become better leaders. 

 So in launch actually 19 year history, you have been through economic ups and downs. So what are some essential leadership lessons that have increased lunch actually staying power. 

Violet: I think ultimately it really boils down to people need to know that you care. As simple as that. I think a lot of the people who have stayed with me for a long time, or people who have continued to keep close relationships with me after leaving to other places, it's that they know that I've got their back. At the end of the day, I really care about their lives, but also about their personal growth and development as well.

So I always say to them, of course, if you're gonna stay here with me for the rest of your life, that's great. I would love that. But at the end of the day, it's also about you growing as a person and also you growing in your career. And if, I'm no longer able to support you or you just don't feel that you are getting that from us anymore. It's okay. It's it's a long life.

You have to maybe make a move right now, but who knows? In future you might come back to us and with all the great lessons and great skill sets that you have acquired through the rest of your career journey, you can come back and help us make the company even better and stronger.

Chuen Chuen: So there are various considerations, right? Responsibility to shareholders. The company objectives. And then knowing that people are first and foremost a family person. Okay, hearing you say this is just a job, it's very different from an employee saying this is just a job.

And that becomes even more empowering, and there's a good level of healthy detachment there as well. And what's most important is that they learn, grow, develop. And that is okay. I love this. I think I'm gonna create a collateral with your picture on it and say, this is just a job.

You have given me two things that I've never ever heard from CEOs before. Okay. One is that we have a fun company, and you don't just say it fun. The whole time when you are sharing is very authentic. It is fun. The second one, this is just a job, right? We'll, never, ever be more important than your family. So if there's something happening, go. 

Violet: It really upsets me sometimes to read the news about people who didn't get to see their family members last face, because the boss or the manager say that, no, you finish your job there and you go. And it upsets me so much. I don't know, I think I'm a person that I really believe in the golden rule which is, don't do unto others what you do not want to do unto yourself.

So I think this is, as a result, it's something that I really apply in the way I run the business and the way that I manage my team as well. Because, If I don't that happening to me, right? , why would I want to do this unto someone else? 

Chuen Chuen: True. Okay, so now, I'm gonna ask you a last question. Is your industry disrupted by AI? 

Violet: Not at the moment, but I could see the potential for it. I think AI is here to disrupt everybody, everything industry. Yeah. And that is the reality of it, right?

It's just a matter of when, how, and, and how are you going to adapt to it. So I think for us, definitely we are, exploring, what AI can do. I'm telling all of my team members, please go and look at AI. We have discussions, we have trainings on all the various AI tools out there, and I highly encourage everybody to use it because, honestly, if you can finish your work in six hours, Instead of 12 hours, why would I not want you to do that?

I'm always the type of boss, if you can finish your work and gimme the results, and you don't even need to show up at work, I'm totally fine with it.

And 

Chuen Chuen: it's not even for finish the world faster so that I can give you more. It's not even for that. 

Violet: The truth of the matter, right? As a boss or as an entrepreneur, of course, someone who finished their job very fast, they give you a lot of results and then they work even harder, of course, those people would attract your attention. For sure. I know. I won't lie and say that it doesn't. But I think at the same time, I think a balance is so important because again, we are all human, we are not machines. If this person can continue performing at this pace forever, that's great. But I think to me it's also what are the consequences? 

If this person keep performing at this pace, and have no breaks and fall sick one day, or they just burn out one day. It's not going to serve me. That's why I always tell some of my top performers as well. Okay, I notice that you're not taking leave. I notice you're working very long hours. I notice you are replying emails at 4:00 AM. I appreciate it, I appreciate your hard work, your dedication, your perseverance, your passion. But at the same time, I told them straight. At the rate you are going, you'll burn out and you burning out is not going to be helpful to me. So I'm , so you know, we got to pace this a bit, right? So it's yes, continue to work hard, continue to deliver. You'll be rewarded very well, but we need to pace this so you do not burn out.

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. So teach them how to pace themselves. 

Definitely. 

Okay. So given the disruptive mode that we live in today, right?

What is one simple action a leader can perform every day that will make a huge difference in the long run? 

I would 

Violet: say, just learn one new thing. No matter how small it is. So I am a learning junkie, and I think, in my StrengthFinder learning is also one of my strengths. Yeah, just learn something new every day. Be it , reading a book, listening to a podcast, or just talking to someone and just getting a new idea.

So every day I'm just I'll be , Oh! there's something new. And sometimes I don't even know why I'm learning that, but, Eventually it will just come together and I'll be like, ah, okay. Just connecting this with that and that give me a totally different business model or gimme a totally different product or service that I can launch.

Chuen Chuen: Wow. I'm really very excited because I'm two hands up a learning junkie and the sense or wonderment 

So it's been so good hearing from you.

You have given me two or three awesome takeaways, and to me the most empowering part of our interview is, hearing how you make it a point to make work meaningful, purposeful. Creating human-centered workplaces. I'm very excited for the further success of lunch actually, and hope that we can catch up one day over 

Violet: coffee.

Definitely. Thank you so much, Chuen Chuen for having me. 

Thank 

Chuen Chuen: you.