Sneha: Silent meetings are a thing. For that, number one, when meetings go silent. It also is a reflection of your own leadership style. 

Chuen Chuen: Welcome to agile leaders conversations. This is a podcast where we invite human center professionals and leaders to share what it means to be in today's workplaces. From the personal stories, find out. The greatest learning that guides them through disruption and forge a better way forward. The insights will maximize your leadership potential and unlock possibilities for a better future. 

My name is Yeo Chuen Chuen. I'm the author of leaders people love. A guide for agile leaders to creating great workplaces and happy employees. I'm delighted to have you listening today. My guest is Sneha Govind. 

Chuen Chuen: A global talent management leader with over a decade of experience in designing and delivering talent strategy and learning solutions across fortune 100 organizations, and high growth, global SaaS startups. Passionate about empowering educators.Sneha serves as a coach and advisory member, fostering professional growth and enhancing student outcomes. 

Welcome to the show, Sneha. Please tell us about yourself, your name, what you do and why you do what you do.

Sneha: Sure. Thank you so much. Hi everyone, I am Sneha Govind, a very passionate learning and development professional with more than a decade's experience in this field, which I believe is a platform of creativity that drives the culture of innovation within organizations.

I often also introduce myself as a young and ambitious working mother, who's also a lifelong learner. Now why I do what I do such an interesting question because by qualification, I'm a software engineer, but I realized that the world of algorithms and programming didn't interest me as much as being a people person.

I also thrive in simplifying complex things into smaller chunks that are easier to understand.

I also believe that in an organization, the larger organizational strategy is largely driven by three tenets. The first one is the organization's vision. The second one, investment in technology. And last but not the least, talent which literally drives me and motivates me to be in the field that I am in and brings out the best in whatever I do.

Chuen Chuen: So good. So I can hear why we can click, because I was trained as a computer engineer. You were trained as a software engineer and both of us have the same passion, simplifying complex problems, giving clarity when the world has become so disruptive.

And I love the three tenets that you talk about. The vision, the investment in technology, and the people, right? The talent. 

In this series of podcasts, we are talking about how the definition of leadership has changed. So in my book, a leader people love, how it would have changed over time. So, when you think about a leader, people will love, who's the person that comes to your mind? 

Sneha: I love the title of your book, Leaders People Love. I have been really fortunate for having worked along with multiple global leaders. I can't literally do justice by naming one single person, but I could just talk about a few traits that I've picked up from leaders across the globe that I try to emulate myself day in and day out as a people leader myself.

Some would be leading with empathy and intent. Being intentful about a person's career and wanting to draw the best potential out of every single individual. For instance, as a people leader, whether you like it or not, when you start leading teams, you own someone else's career. As much as we want to drive career development conversations individually and want everyone to have the reins of the careers themselves, they bestow it on you and the intention with which you drive those conversation becomes extremely crucial.

Being authentic and absolutely vulnerable. There is no shame in showcasing vulnerability just because you're a people leader. 

Last not the least, it's important that you walk the talk. When you're talking about building trust, when you're talking about creating a psychologically safe workplace, what are you doing to enable that?

So these three important traits, which is leading with empathy and intent, walking the talk and being authentic and vulnerable when you showcase your own leadership style is something very critical and crucial.

Chuen Chuen: So this part about being vulnerable and authentic. For a young female leader, I believe that's not so simple because I get this question so often from other women leaders as well. So, how do you manage this tension between authentic and vulnerable yet be aware of the unconscious bias that is present all around us?

Sneha: Firstly, I think I'd like to say that I've been really fortunate for having been led over the past couple of recent years, in particular by leaders who have been very inclusive, who've been very understanding of conscious and unconscious bias that may exist in the workplace, especially for young women leaders. It's been something that I have been practicing intentionally as well.

I think the very first thing is building trust within your own leaders, amongst your peers, as well as your teams. Speak up. Help everyone around you understand what are your life circumstances. For instance, for me, despite being a young woman leader, I also have a young child that I need to nurture. 

As much as I'm ambitious. I'm equally caring and equally want to give all the importance to my own child because she's at a critical juncture in her own life stage.

So how do I cope up with it? Talk. Talk openly about it. Again, we spoke about vulnerability. Being vulnerable and being your authentic self. Gone are the days wherein women had to literally choose between either the careers or being, a mother back at home. Today is a time wherein flexibility, wanting to contribute equally back in the workplace as well as back at home.

Also another thing that I have successfully been able to manage is with the support of my family. Create a very conducive ecosystem back at home that supports me be my best at my workplace. At the same time having built in that trust and relationship with my leaders and peers in the organization. Built an equally conducive environment back in the workplace that supports me to be my best version of the mother and the family person that I am.

Chuen Chuen: So building trust with leaders, speaking up goes hand in hand to creating that psychological safety, so that we can bring our true selves and share our real thoughts. Okay, this is the life stage I'm at right now. This is a support I need. This is what I can contribute. And this is what I want to achieve in my career. So all these things come hand in hand. 

 I noticed that you introduced yourself earlier as an ambitious and young working mother, how did you get to this stage where you are able to introduce yourself as such? Because I can imagine a lot of women would not want to be associated with the word ambitious.

Sneha: When I just look back my decades journey in the industry, I remember whenever I used to use the word ambitious, it was not seen with a lot of positive connotations. It had a shade of negative connotation. Being a young woman.

But years later, I think the workplaces have evolved, wherein women have more say on the table. They're being encouraged and supported, not just by leaders in the industry, but also back at home.

And the answer lies in the previous question as well. You see the confidence coming out of the conversation that we are having right now, it's also to do with the fact that I've been able to create a very strong and conducive ecosystem back at home. With the support of my family as well as the support of my colleagues in the workplace that enables me to be my best self in the both worlds that I want to literally thrive on.

Also I think motherhood changes you totally. Every time I wake up in the morning, I want to be by myself for my daughter, because it's a world that we as parents are carving out for the next generation as well. So just creating a world which is better for the future generation than what's for us.

Chuen Chuen: Very nice. So in your area of responsibility, where you look after the talent strategy, what have you learned about leadership that you try to pass on?

Sneha: Sure. I'd like to answer this in two fold. One, as a people leader and another one, as an individual level myself.

So as a people leader, if you want to be a leader who people literally love, you need to ensure that you're authentic in your leadership style.

When you lead every single day, you need to bear in mind that at some point in time, someone is going to reference you as either a bad people leader or a great people leader. And you wouldn't want to be the former, but you would always want to be the latter. So being authentic and being true to yourself is very important and walking the talk is even more important. 

At an individual level, I think it's very important as leaders for you to be adaptive and have culture of continuous learning, which means to say, you need to also bear in mind the generational diversity that exists in the workplace today, and be very inclusive and intentional of creating an inclusive and psychologically safe workspace for you. The generational diversity that exists, because if you don't, you end up becoming obsolete both at an individual level as well as a people leader. 

So these are two key things that I have definitely learned in my own leadership journey and the field of talent strategy that I practice at this point in time.

Chuen Chuen: Your people are so fortunate to have you because you hit all the right points.

I love that you said about for the individual being adaptive, continuously learning, be inclusive intentionally.

So in certain organizations, there are growing groups of people who have forgotten how to learn or refused to learn, such that every time the organization tries to bring in new initiatives, which is every other quarter, right? These days, they face a lot of resistance on the ground. And there is then this group of people who no longer have relevant skills and they're running out of places to park them so that they can leverage their strengths. What was your take on that? How can organizations start to change such a culture? 

Sneha: Yeah. As a talent strategist, or as a people leader, you need to be aware of that, and you need to be catering to it in accordance, so that everyone feels included, and everyone feels their learning needs are being addressed as well, which also means you need to approach a diverse portfolio of learning when it comes to dissipating those to the learners across.

Chuen Chuen: So it's about expanding the skill set of the leader so that he or she cater to everyone. 

Sneha: That's correct. And also understands the learning needs of the different generations that they are leading across as well. And I think it's also pertinent that at an individual level, whether you're a people leader or not, you try to be abreast of all technological advancements and changes, because if you're rigid, you're going to end up becoming obsolete eventually. 

Chuen Chuen: Correct. Relevance is our most important currency, especially in the world today. So I have this phrase in my book. Every leader is a good teacher. When I floated these ideas to some middle or senior managers, I get some pushback because they feel like. Why do I have to teach people? That is the role of the L& D department. That's the role of teachers back in the schools. I'm not a teacher. Unfortunately, if I'm understanding what you are saying correctly, because of the generational diversity, the learning styles and needs differ so much that the leader need to cater to their needs differently, right? Teach them differently in order for them to upskill, to continue to be relevant.

So how do you convince the leaders to be on board?

Sneha: Of course, totally. And I think it also evolves and revolves around the evolution of learning. Do I have to train and coach leaders to be? I wouldn't make it as the word teachers only because it makes you feel one sided. Rather, do I have to train and coach leaders to be better coaches? Yes, of course, because again, people leadership is a very intricate field of leadership, which doesn't come naturally and organically to everyone.

So that could be great people leaders who are innate leaders. Of course, but they could also be the other set where a bit of coaching is required so that they understand the intricacies involved in the responsibilities bestowed on them. Where in helping them understand that generational diversity is a thing. 

Of course, coaching leaders are pivotal in order to ensure that we bring the best out of the people leadership skills so that the larger organization benefits out of it.

Chuen Chuen: What are some lessons you believe leaders today must learn sooner better than later?

Sneha: I would have three in fact. The first one would be to communicate and articulate effectively. The second one would be to lead with empathy and intent, create a very positive workspace by constructively giving feedback to your team members so that they bring out their best every single day. And last but not the least, creating an environment of trust so that you can ultimately create a psychologically safe workspace where everyone feels included, everyone feels heard, and everyone feels they are at their best to contribute every single day.

Chuen Chuen: Yes. Now Gen Z's are entering the workforce, and I think a lot of misunderstanding. People don't understand them. And people are trying to figure out how to work with them.

And it's not too different from the days where we as millennials stepped into the workforce. So how can leaders do something about that?

Sneha: Yeah. When I again look back What I wanted to also prove to the then leaders who are from a different generation was that I'm not a new kid in the block alone.

I am a very serious professional who is very passionate about the field of work that I am in. And I'm very intentional about What I am doing by bringing in smaller innovations that created larger impacts. One point in time, an organization that I was part of was struggling with feedback gathering.

So how could I bring in an innovative approach and just gathering feedback would appealed through the larger masses was something that I took on myself, and I did that, delivered it. It could be smaller aspects, but that sort of, brings, goes a very long way and creates a larger impact.

Eventually, I brought in my own personal passion to work, which is all things about creativity and anything that I was looking at as a problem, I always wanted to bring in creative solutions that leaders were also able to see. 

I mentioned as leaders, you need to be communicating effectively, but as the newest generation within the block, we also had the onus on us to communicate more effectively. I fine tuned and positioned the way we wanted to communicate, catering to the different audiences that we were managing and we were positioning ourselves to.

So when I learned that, I was able to be seen in a different light rather than just being the new kid in the block. So I think communicating effectively goes hand in hand, not just for a particular generation, but in general, the overall workforce and catering the way you communicate is also important depending upon the audience that you are talking with.

Chuen Chuen: So I run this series, leadership storytelling for leaders. It has been very well received so far. And the core message is we have to cater the way we communicate to our audience's needs. Similarly for leaders becoming coaches, right? We want leaders to use coaching skills. It is to cater to your employees or your team members learning needs. Being stakeholder centered. I think that is the core value. 

Okay, there was a newspaper article. I wrote for the Singapore newspaper on the issues with the communication. So the context was the middle managers feel a lot of heat when there's a lot of transformation happening in the organization because there's over communication. 

So what's your advice to senior leaders or any anyone in charge of change management? How can they communicate in a time of rapid changes so that people on the ground get the message really clearly and start executing the new plan?

Sneha: Articulate really well, articulate clearly, be transparent about whatever the change is. Because sometimes when change happens, it can be overwhelming. And if in case you were to try to over communicate and communicate with multiple layers of words and verbiages and jargons, it becomes too much for the audience who are consuming the same.

So it's very important for you to be transparent, and be simple in the way you're communicating and also communicate very clearly and articulate it so that the audience that you're communicating knows what's the impact and what is expected out of them through the process of change. 

Chuen Chuen: Very nice. Be transparent, keep it simple, and be clear about the impact or outcome that is expected of them. Yeah, I love this. This is exactly why I teach in a leadership storytelling. Too often the leaders spend too much time trying to use too many words to say one simple thing, right?

Understanding the attention span of human beings has now plummeted to what, six, seven seconds, there's very few things. We can hold in our heads right now, right? So all the more we have to be very simple, concise, and precise. 

Sneha: And just be authentic. And there is we've been talking about it. No shame associated with vulnerability.

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. That's great. And you actually can remind me one thing, which is the emotional message we send as we are communicating needs to be congruent with the words we actually speak. So being authentic, feeling grounded, like in this period of change, am I stressed out or am I feeling confident that the plan will fly?

And those emotions will help you carry message through, whether your message is convincing, compelling, or people are suspicious because people can tell when the emotions and the words don't match.

So what's one simple action a leader can do every day to make a difference in the long run?

Sneha: Practicing authentic leadership wherein you bring your true self to work every single day, and that's where it goes back to the earlier point that I'd mentioned, which is walking the talk. When you speak of work life balance, what does work life balance mean to you and how would you want to show up in the workplace?

Walking the talk and practicing authentic leadership is key. Along with creating a psychologically safe workplace where everyone feels included, everyone feels they have the ability to be their authentic self without being judged for who they are is key. And I think these are very important things that every leader should practice on a day to day basis. 

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. And especially these days, we are talking about increasing the pace of innovation, right? So there's this report from innosights. It's talking about the shortening lifespans of S& P 500 companies. Of course, every other company would face the risk of distinction due to irrelevance, if they don't innovate. And psychological safety is so important. Have you seen any success stories of how leaders do it to harness the generational diversity for the purpose of innovation in the workplace? 

Sneha: Sure. In the past, and as I lead my teams as well, one key thing that I do is start off a meeting or anything for that matter interaction with just checking in with them on a regular basis. It could be a psychologically safe activity that I had learned in the past where and you're just asking them to associate their moods to a color, and trying to help them understand that this is being asked to understand what's your state of mind.

Are you feeling good? Are you feeling great? Are you not feeling so good? Are you feeling apprehensive? Are you feeling tense? As a leader, you put yourself forth, your most vulnerable side, both personally and professionally, so that they know you're there as a leader to support them. Be that personally to whatever extent you can or professionally as well. So this is one thing that I practice in my own leadership style as I interact with my team's day in day out.

Chuen Chuen: This is great because you are one of the few leaders that would be comfortable talking about emotions. Like, how are you feeling? Most people don't ask these questions and most leaders, the way they chair meetings, they jump right into item number one, which is work.

Sneha: I think that's the reason how the workplace has also evolved in the last decade or so, wherein emotions were seen or showcasing a vulnerable side was probably seen as a weakness and fast forward, we are in an era wherein showcasing vulnerability just shows the human side of you.

And that is something increasingly every people leader needs to practice because many times, your team members can in fact feel a bit uncomfortable sharing their true authentic self in the fear of a possible repercussion during the performance cycles. 

Chuen Chuen: Showcasing our emotions in the constructive way shows that we are human beings, right? Emotions are not weaknesses. 

Okay. There's one more I want to ask you, which is about the very quiet meetings. Many of the clients come to me and say, Oh, people don't want to talk. We have this discussion, brainstorming for ideas, but nobody's talking.

It seems like they're waiting for the boss to give the direction and the idea and they are out of ideas. So how to encourage conversations when you have a very diverse group of people in the same team. How can you create the kind of environment so that people can speak up?

Sneha: Silent meetings are a thing. For that, number one, when meetings go silent. It also is a reflection of your own leadership style. At times it could be that you're seen as a very authoritative leader. 

So number one, just reflect on your own leadership style, and maybe your presence may not be seen as very comfortable to everyone in the room. And that's where you need to bring in a change in your own leadership style where you bring people into the conversation, where you appreciate every voice that you hear, and you make everyone feel heard. 

What can happen as an outcome is the fact that everyone feels appreciated. Everyone feels it's a very positive work culture wherein everyone has a say on the table and they feel appreciated, heard, and their opinions being valued. Makes them want to speak up even more. 

Also, another thing is many a times people may not feel utterly comfortable to share their best in the presence of a leader.

So sometimes creating psychological safety also might mean having the leader absent from a critical meeting so that you can have those ideas generate. Create and foster a culture which is non judgmental, wherein people feel safe to just speak up, irrespective of whether the leader is there or not.

But again, this sort of differs from leaders to leaders. It's where the leader is seen as a very authoritative leader that I speak about this example of the leader being absent.

Chuen Chuen: Which is a common issue in the workplaces because silent meetings are indeed a thing, like you get pin drop silence. And my curiosity was always, we spend so much money hiring the talents, the best people to join the organization, but Why have they become quiet? So this is one of the things that I discussed in my book as well, that if your passionate and best performers have become silent, then your organization or your team is in trouble.

Three very important things that you share, reflect on your style. Have you been unconsciously or unintentionally been very authoritative or judgmental or some people who do have this aura? When they speak, it sounds like judgment, blaming, they had an angry voice, the expression. So reflect on the style, make people feel heard. 

So how do you respond when they give opinion? How do they know that you honestly value their opinions? Because it forms that culture where, I'm going to the meeting and I know my voice is valued, which is a big thing for the Gen Zs. 

Sneha: Absolutely. I was just about to get there as well, because currently we are in a workplace where in you have generational diversity. And most of the meetings are chaired by leaders who are older in terms of their age in itself, because of which the multi generational audience that comes into the picture. Everyone wants to feel heard and everyone wants their opinions to be valued. So you need to tweak your own. Style your own leadership such that everyone feels valued and heard on the table.

Another thing that I wanted to also share, many a times a leader is seen as authoritative leader. When he or she is not open to feedback, it could be a one to one conversation that would have changed my perception of the leader because of which I know that come what may, even if in case I were to just share an idea, this leader has a perception in his mind because of which that's rigid and even if in case I were to say something or voice out my opinions, he or she is not going to give it any value. I wouldn't feel valued because of which I would rather remain silent in the meeting. 

Chuen Chuen: Yeah, I'm curious about the part on the giving feedback, by being able to switch styles by seeking feedback, because the leaders I work with, they also have problem with this because they ask during performance, like a one to one conversation where they are discussing career development. And then they say anything for me and then nothing comes out. 

Sneha: That's where the leader plays a very critical and crucial role in creating a psychologically safe environment wherein rather than sharing feedback with the team right at the beginning, maybe you want to reverse roles and seek feedback and then maybe, share feedback. That's when the audience as well knows and especially your check in conversations, your performance reviews are all key platforms wherein you can start sharing feedback with your leaders as well and that's something that every single person needs to leverage as well.

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. It's not easy. A lot of people, when they think about feedback, they were like, Oh, cringe. Because is there something that I don't want to hear is I want the truth, but can I handle the truth? So how I advise the leaders is to give them a framework, like three things I've done well, two things I can do better. So find a way, a structure to ask the questions in a non confrontational way. So that is safe. The real test is how the leader responds. 

Sneha: It's so funny you say that because it just brings me to another point, which is, to respond and not react, because the impact that it leaves on your audience could also be forever. 

Like I mentioned earlier, as a people leader, so you have the ability to either make or break someone's career by the way you respond or react to situations.

So it's very important that as a people leader, you pause and respond, not react. 

Chuen Chuen: Now I understand why you chose the trait walk the talk. Whether it's a trust, having a culture of continuous learning or psychological safety, it all depends on what the leader they themselves do.

I'm so happy to have this conversation with you, Sneha. Thank you for sharing your authentic views and giving your time.

Sneha: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Chuen Chuen. And I think Leaders People Love literally is going to be one great book that every people leader is going to be benefited out of. The principle that you have laid out in the book is going to be key critical in shaping the people leadership of the future as well, which is going to be inclusive of generational diversity.

Thank you so much for having me on the show.