Neetha: We limit ourselves to what others tell us are our limits. We forget that we have a lot more in our circle of control and beyond a circle of control in circle of influence to create that butterfly effect.

The small action that we take, and sometimes we don't realize the power of that. 

Chuen Chuen: Welcome to agile leaders conversations. This is a podcast where we invite human-centered professionals and leaders to share what it means to lead in today's workplaces. From the personal stories, find out the greatest learning guides them through disruption and forge a better way forward. The insights will maximize your leadership potential and unlock possibilities for a better future.

My name is Yeo Chuen Chuen. I'm the author of Leaders People Love. A guide for agile leaders to creating great workplaces and happy employees. I'm delighted to have you listen in today.

 My guest is Neetha Nair, Chief Human Resources Officer at Prudential Assurance Company, Singapore. Neetha has deep experience across end to end HR function, as an HR practitioner and consultant across varied industries and geographies which has helped her develop a holistic view of business and people practices.

Good to see you, Neetha. Welcome to the show.

So tell us about yourself, your name, what you do, and why you do what you do.

Neetha: I am Neetha Nair, Chief Human Resource Officer of Prudential Singapore.

Why do I do what I do? My purpose in life is to help others find their Ikigai. In doing so, it helps me find my Ikigai and my reason for existence, and help people maximize their potential so they can get the most out of life. And whatever that most out of life means for them because it's different for different people.

So for me, through my role in HR, I can create that opportunity, create the avenues for people to help them find whatever it is that they aspire to be. I'm privileged and it's very rare sometimes that my personal purpose aligns with that of my current organization. And yes, I continue to do what I do and I love being here.

Chuen Chuen: When you talk about Ikigai, the reason to exist. And there's no expiry date to that, isn't it?

Neetha: And you never arrive at it. It's always a continuously evolving game. Because your passion may change, your mission in life may change and so on.

So it's always trying to find that harmony. There's never a balance. It's a harmony. And it's a journey and not a destination.

Chuen Chuen: These are things that I totally resonate with. One of the first things that changed my paradigm was when I embarked on a leadership development program for myself.

The mentor at that time talked about life in seasons. So there's this notion of growth, evolution, continuous changing, and we are always discovering and rediscovering ourselves, our passion.

Neetha: That is the joy of life. And the fact that we have the power within us to do that actually, it doesn't have to actually always come from outside.

We don't realize that, that it's actually within us. And we have a lot of personal agency, which we don't exercise enough to continue to reinvent, reimagine ourselves. 

Chuen Chuen: Personal agency that we don't exercise enough. Would you share a little more about that?

Neetha: I think we limit ourselves to what others tell us are our limits, right? So when we talk about personal agency, we forget that we have a lot more in our circle of control and beyond a circle of control in circle of influence to create that butterfly effect.

The small action that we take, and sometimes we don't realize that the power of that. It's the small action that we create or do inspire somebody else, motivate somebody else to do something bigger. Or does have a further impact.

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. And the small actions that create a butterfly effect that change things in a massive way.

So I heard that Prudential has implemented a policy where there's no retirement age. This is a sharp contrast with the kind of conversations that we are hearing. Like in Singapore, we are raising retirement age and some people might not take it positively. They're like, Oh, why do I have to work for even more years? I can't wait to retire. Tell us the rationale behind this policy, how you came about and the effects you have seen so far.

Neetha: Absolutely. I must say that I was privileged to be at the right place at the right time. Where the previous CEO Wilfred Blackburn of Prudential and the CHRO Sheela Parakkal. They were looking to address some of these, social practices and how we could contribute to that.

And so when we look at Singapore as a society, and today it's a bit of blue zone, average life span 80 and so on. How can we enable sustainability of that society, and sustainability of careers.

So in our own way, starting with our own people back to circle of control and influence. We got to walk the talk and we said, let's enable people, our workforce to have extended careers when they're physically, mentally fit, and aspiring to wanting to continue to contribute. So in all of this coming together, we had a team of people come together and all of this happened very quickly.

We said, why not. Why do we need to limit people by that number? And so that was the genesis of the no retirement age policy.

 While it started with that, it actually addressed so many of our objectives, especially the purpose. For every life for every future. So as we look at an inclusive society, if they want to continue to contribute, they bring such a huge wealth of knowledge, experience that can be transferred to all the new joiners and new people in the organization.

 So it's about enabling everyone to have and design a future that they choose to.

 An example, we have a lady in her 60s, who feels that she doesn't have any other family obligations. That she's got enough time, she'd love to continue to be energized and contribute, so she focuses on product policy writing. And she's able to transfer that knowledge to many new joiners.

 She enjoys, and we enjoy the fact that she chooses to be with us. So I think that's an example of someone who's exercising that option. There are people who feel like they want to take a step back and step away. That's the choice we offer.

Chuen Chuen: I noticed so many times you use this phrase, exercise that option.

And it is agency, right? We always have a choice. There's also be careful about the boxes people put you in, right? Self limiting beliefs. Who says that at a certain age, you must be old and sickly and therefore retire.

Neetha: Absolutely.

Chuen Chuen: What if we can be physically, mentally fit and we can have an extended successful career?

Neetha: Our purpose is for every life, for every future.

For our partners, our communities. So our mission is to be trusted partner and protector of the current generation and the future generations to come. So it's for every segment of the society, every segment of the customer, creating an inclusive and back to this, retirement age socially responsible and sustainable future.

Chuen Chuen: Yeah, this is very liberating, I must say.

Neetha: That's that feeling of liberation I get in working here. So I'm going to do a plug and say, please apply to Prudential. It's a great place to work.

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. It's a topic we don't talk about enough. Perhaps we lack the courage to do so right now. We know that in Singapore, we have aging population. It's a fact. But are people ready for retirement. Or people ready for the silver years. So to speak. When many people I work with, they attach their self-worth to work. And one day they are told that, okay, you no longer have a job because you have to retire because you're past a certain age. It becomes so disempowering.

So I see a lot of positive benefits to this policy no retirement where it's always about a choice. If work still is meaningful for you and you want to contribute. Go ahead. But if that's another passion that you have discovered, and you want to go there. Just go there.

Neetha: Absolutely. And we shouldn't judge anyone for either. So even if you attach your self worth to working in an organization or working at home as a full-time mother, it's about your personal choice. And you shouldn't have to judge that.

So that, I truly believe that it is a choice that we should offer people and not have to mandate it to them. But as I think, as the saying goes with great power comes great responsibility.

You have these options and extended career if you continue to be relevant. So there's an individual accountability and agency that you would exercise, and there is a responsibility of the organization in providing them the opportunities. So a policy is as good as just it is on paper, unless you provide them the opportunities and the capability building to continue to be relevant.

The respect and care just because now we have five generations in the workforce already. Just because they're there, and we think it's a great policy to have that's social washing, but that's not good enough.

So how can you actually equip, enable, empower them? There has to be more than just the policy then.

Chuen Chuen: Fantastic. You strike pot of gold here, right? If you want to have an extended career, we must help employees focus on skills building. And that is the responsibility of both parties, employees, employers, right? Yeah. If we allow people to grow in their careers, building skills, they future proof themselves, when they choose to have extended career, they will still be relevant and valuable.

Neetha: You really don't have to worry about being in the confines of the organization. Retirement policy or not. Then that builds confidence for you to go out and do your own thing. And so many are actually choosing to step away. Do things that they've never done before.

Setting up businesses. Just look at you. You're so accomplished and successful in what you do. And I think you're an inspiration as well to so many people. So it's about making that choice, of course.

Chuen Chuen: So I prize the joy of learning, attitude to learn above everything else.

 I'm doing a doctoral degree right now. So my research topic is about perfectionism, fear of failure, and high learning focus that results in self efficacy. Which then is linked to personal agency, comes in at the top as effective way to overcome fear of failure.

Neetha: Very true.

Chuen Chuen: This series or podcast is about leaders people love. So when you think about a leader, people will love who's the first person that comes to your mind?

Neetha: If I can be cheeky, hopefully it's me in the future. I hope I earn the stripes and the respect for that in future.

That's a bit of a tough question because beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. So for different people, they love different leaders based on what they connect with. And for me, if I was to just think of the top of my head, I can't name just one leader. Because there's something about that leader and that's point in time or at that stage, I find that I am trying to emulate.

I'm thinking about Taylor Swift. I love Taylor Swift. I was there at the concert. I love the courage, the ability to challenge status quo the ability to just be out there and try things differently. So courage is one thing that I look to. So if there's a leader that's demonstrating that.

I love Jacinda Ardern, who used to be the Prime Minister of New Zealand. Very vulnerable, authentic.

Again back to what we were saying earlier, who defines leaders should be like that.

She actually broke any of that definition to say you could be vulnerable. It's okay to be at the top and say I have only that much in the tank to give and it's okay to step back. There's no obligation to just do the role for the sake of it. So I connect with her on that.

I'm a big fan of the Obamas, both the Obamas not for the political ideology. I am not very close to all of that, but it's just the relatedness, the flair and human humor that they bring to their leadership style.

So for me, when I think of leaders that people love, it's about what you are looking for in a leader. And if that connects with you then you'd love that.

 I'm hearing courage, vulnerability. The courage to be vulnerable as well. Courage to challenge the norms in the case of state of Taylor Swift. The relatedness, the humor in the Obamas. And I think that quality very down to earth quality.

Humility. You articulated and summarized the skills really well. Courage, curiosity, humor, respect, and most importantly, optimism. So when I think about whether it's, Jacinda or it's about Taylor Swift or Obama, I think they have this quality of wanting to spread positivity and optimism.

That's something that's important to me as well.

Chuen Chuen: Actually, I wrote on Jacinda Ardern in my book. And it's exactly what you said. Be the kind of leader who knows that this is what I can give.

My tank is this full right now. And it is not right if I continue to force myself to do that. So it's time to step away. And she did it with so much grace. And I really love that.

In Singapore, it's quite recent that our Olympic champ announced his retirement. And in that interview, I saw many aspects. Like being honest with yourself and being vulnerable that, yes, swimming is a big part of my life, but right now in this season, I want to do something else. And that's okay.

Neetha: Absolutely. And that takes a lot of courage because others have expectations of you. And many times, at the mercy of those expectations and you are afraid you will fail them. Many times in the Asian culture, it comes with parents. you don't want to disappoint them.

Chuen Chuen: It's a harmony. like earlier you said, it's not so much of a balance but more of a harmony between who you are expected to be and who you can be in that moment of time.

So in your area of responsibility, what have you learned about leadership that you try to pass on?

Neetha: When I initially spoke about personal agency especially as leaders, role modeling to others is very important. I love Mahatma Gandhi's quote, which says, be the change that you hope to see in the world.

And so if you want to see more kindness and care, more optimism or wellbeing, whatever it is in the world, role model that. And you may be able to inspire or influence just one or two people in your circle of control and influence, but it will have an effect. So it starts with us and role modeling is one of the key things.

So it goes back to being authentic, knowing yourself, not limiting yourself and all of that. But that's one word role modeling for me.

Chuen Chuen: And role modeling is such a powerful thing, right? In social learning theory, the authority figures in our lives are powerful role models. So what leaders, managers do, whether they have a title or not, right? Others would learn by observing. Is this linked to the butterfly effect too, would you say that?

Neetha: Absolutely. And in different ways that you look at it, right? And you said leaders, but I think as just individuals and human beings, to start with. It's just that if we could just do one thing for ourselves.

So it's about that small ways of role modeling. Role modeling sounds a big term per se. But it's in small actions that each one of us do. We shouldn't forget that we do have the power and the ability to create that butterfly effect.

Chuen Chuen: And it is through the decisions we make every day, right? Big, small behaviors. Are you trying to be the best possible human being that you can ever be?

Neetha: Absolutely. We spoke about how we could create impact in our sphere of influence. As HR professionals, we should not lose the opportunity. We have that seat on the table, the spotlight. And I personally subscribe to Social sustainability as an agenda. It's not just within the organization as HR professionals that we can contribute to, say, capability building or culture, but actually even beyond that.

And the concept of social sustainability for me is building sustainable talent pipelines so that the future of this organization to be sustainable.

And so while I spoke about focusing on internal talent pipeline, and that's ensuring our people are sustainable, longer extended careers. It's also about creating external talent pools.

So, yes, talent doesn't exist, and there's a war for talent, but we also have a responsibility to provide the opportunities to transfer knowledge to students, so that they're ready by the time they come into the workforce. Create the talent pools not just wait for the educators and IHLs (institutes of higher learning) who are doing an amazing job, to ensure that education is relevant and there's practical experience.

Fortunate to be in Singapore, where government plays a very active role, provides a lot of support in creating this ecosystem. As Prudential, we've benefited a lot, whether it's through work study programs, through career conversion programs, the internships with the IHLs which all of which the government also provides support for, we were able to create those talent pools which don't exist and that's end to end social sustainability for me.

Chuen Chuen: A lot of strategic thinking. When you talk about social sustainability, yes, there's a war for talent right now, right? We can do this with a scarcity mindset, as in I'm going to train somebody. I'm not going to Let them go to other companies. These are my people. Or we can do it with an abundance mindset, which I'm hearing from the way you're describing the program. Equip the students so that they are ready by the time they come into the workforce.

Of course, we are building that connection and rapport very early on. And we are building the sustainable talent pipeline. It is okay if these students go elsewhere, but it is fine because we are upgrading the ecosystem together. And we are role modeling to your existing staff. What it means to continuously learn and be relevant.

Neetha: You hit all the points there. I think the abundance mindset is definitely the key. Growth mindset, another word that people use for that. We cannot underestimate the challenge and the fact that especially small, medium enterprises do have a challenge in investing in some of this.

There's time, resources that you do need to invest. Even large organizations, there may be financial constraints from time to time. We can't just take it for granted that, okay, great, you can have the right intent. Many times it comes from that, do my people have the time and capacity to invest in this?

You are able to actually bring people on board. Transfer skills. And for us, it's been nearly 50 percent conversion rates. Then we benefit, of course. There's indirect benefit of the employee value proposition that we've embedded in them.

They become our natural ambassadors. They become our customers in future. So many things that we don't realize. Will the person work with me in future? Should I invest? That's not the only thing. That person becomes your advocate and ambassador and customer and so much more.

And at the end of it, social sustainability, as we spoke about is for the benefit of the larger society at large. It's not just us being happy and thriving and sustainable, which is no good if the economy and the society around you is not thriving, so it is helping each other in that ecosystem.

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. So social sustainability, the ESG or the S, right? It makes business sense.

Neetha: It does. There's been a lot of focus on the E, environment or the G, the governance. But the social sustainability part is a difficult one because it needs a lot more behavioral organizational shifts and resources.

But if you really think about it for the sustainability of the organization, you need a sustainable workforce. That means their skills need to be sustainable. The talent pipelines need to be sustainable. Their energy levels need to be sustainable, and we sometimes don't clearly associate well-being with sustainable performance. But sustainability of the workforce also means sustainable energy.

And that does translate to sustainable performance. So I think we need to look at it holistically. It is challenging, but again, small actions, one step at a time. We underestimate those small actions, and think we need to do something very big bang. It's not always that.

Chuen Chuen: On the topic of activating change. Because I support many passionate HR leaders who need to steer the organization towards a certain direction. But struggle to activate change. So what's your advice on how HR leaders can activate changes in their organizations?

Neetha: It's not an easy task. Definitely cannot underestimate what it takes. And I think we have to meet people where they are. So not to assume that everybody should suddenly go on to the end of the spectrum because the time is right, or you want to do it. So that change takes time and you've got to understand the readiness.

For HR professionals, it's very important to understand business. So if you're just coming from a space of functional HR process, and this is my process and policy, it doesn't cut it anymore. You've got to talk business. You've got to understand the pain points of the business.

It is a partnership. One of our value statements is customer is our compass. So while one would think that as an external customer, for HR professionals, all our internal business stakeholders is our customer and our compass. So if you think about it that way, what is the pain point of the customer?

That's one key thing. Ensuring that you understand business, their pain points and meet them where they are and partner with them.

I've also realized that it is the holy trinity of CEO, CFO and CHRO in a way. Meaning you have to support the CEO with the agenda. So whatever the agenda of the organization is, it does come with people, the financial assets and the financial capital, intellectual capital, has to go hand in hand. There are realistic challenges. You can't just ask for budgets all the time. You have to operate within constraints.

 What's important as HR professional is to be able to understand and innovate within those constraints with customer as a compass.

Chuen Chuen: You address so many pertinent points.

In the earliest stages of my coaching career once I pivoted, HR business partner came out a lot. And different professionals I work with, they are at different stages of understanding or assimilating what it means to be a business partner.

 It's not just about understanding your functional HR. If we want to influence and persuade, we have to speak their lingo.

Neetha: And it's not just the functional business terms. It's actually structuring a team a certain way. Sometimes the first thing is to start influencing the leaders themselves. First, you've got to show them the business case in investing in that capability in their function. It's become more challenging and difficult for HR professionals, for sure.

But it's exciting because it's stretching us. It's that growth mindset. If we adopt it, then stretch ourselves, enjoy and create so much more impact.

Chuen Chuen: My conversations with many coachees have been around strategic thinking. How to turn that muscle on all the time. Always look out for opportunities to move the agenda forward. As you unpack what it means to activate change.

I can also hear a lot of patience. Change doesn't happen overnight, but it is looking out for the small things that we can shift at the right time.

So personally for you, how do you develop the strategic thinking to keep an eye on the future?

Neetha: For me, it's always been curious around how do things work? Why are they like that? Why can't it be any different? How we absorb knowledge. So for me, I consume information and knowledge in many different ways. That could be a Tiktok video to reading a strategy paper to listening to music or about another industry.

There's value and information in everything. So talking about Taylor Swift, that's a huge business case study in itself. If you just look at it as music, awesome music. Great. But there's so much more in terms of strategically, how she is where she is. So you can actually learn from anything that you are passionate about and draw from it. It's about being curious.

Of course, if you are alone and trying to figure it out, that's going to be challenging. So you've got to have your village of mentors and coach and experienced people who would show you that path.

Seek mentors, leaders, read about what they've done. More importantly from outside your industry, because When you're trying to be future thinking, you can't limit yourself to your own pond. You've got to think about bigger fish out there, what are they doing differently and how can you continue to be relevant? You're always trying to think a step ahead.

If you didn't even try and you miss the boat that's the pity. But you tried everything in your capacity. But when you miss that boat, maybe you didn't try it, right? Practicing that the right way next time is going to make the difference. That itself also shifts and reframes your mindset. That helps strategic thinking.

So competence gives you confidence. And confidence allows you to take further chances. And then that expands your horizon of strategic thinking.

Chuen Chuen: I'm furiously taking down notes.

It's fantastic. Competence gives you confidence. When developing strategic thinking, number one, curiosity, because you can and you must learn from anything and everything. Whether it is in the business, outside of the business, in a professional life, in a personal life. I love that.

What I observe is people get so busy. Their mental space is completely taken up by whatever is most top of mind, that there isn't capacity to even look out for what they could possibly learn.

I love that reframing when you say take the chance to make mistakes. It's okay to miss the boat. I recall one of my conversations with one of my coachees, and I said it's not the right time to push certain initiatives.

Can you create the conditions that make it the right timing? That gives much more positive energy. Bringing back the personal agency.

 I love the humility and the relatedness, Neetha, that you bring to our conversation. Because for a lot of women leaders, they feel it's very daunting to hold a conversation at the senior level and stand in front of everybody, the encouragement that, Hey, I didn't start out this way.

Neetha: Absolutely. In the beginning, I said it's so many of these are imposed on us as self-limiting beliefs that you can only do this much.

 But a lot of it is about how we operate within that self-limiting frame. So we do underestimate people and what they can do. And we've told ourselves that this is possible and what's not possible. This is how we should behave, not behave. If you were just to rethink that and take the chance, what's going to happen if I just change the status quo, and be okay with the consequence, if any. And that takes courage.

Sometimes that's difficult. But then it's liberating, as you said.

Chuen Chuen: This is the perfect way for us to close this conversation.

Neetha: It was so much fun.

Chuen Chuen: It's so consistent what you have shared from beginning to the end. And when we are able to come back full circle to the very things that we started with. It is a very complete and fantastic conversation. So I really thank you for your time.

Neetha: Thank you.