Ida: I find it very hard to talk about what I do and my achievements. But it's something that we should really work on. And what I do in my setting, because like you said the ratio of a professorship level, associate professorship level, it's very few ladies.

So I would actively tap on their shoulders, knock on their door, and say, look, we have this mentoring program. We work together to write our promotion papers. We form almost like a group of networks of support and then we bounce ideas. 

Chuen Chuen: Welcome to agile leaders conversations. This is a podcast where we invite human-centered professionals and leaders to share what it means to lead in today's workplaces. From their personal stories, find out the greatest learning that guides them through disruption and forge a better way forward. Their insights will maximize your leadership potential and unlock possibilities for a better future. My name is Yeo Chuen Chuen. I'm the author of Leaders People Love, a guide for agile leaders to creating great workplaces and happy employees. I'm delighted to have you listen in today. My guest is Professor Ida Fatimah, Deputy Pro Vice-Chancellor at Swinburne University of Technology Sarawak. 

Professor Ida has a decade of experience in leading academic operations and research initiatives. She has been involved in transformative and impactful research projects with the government, industry, and higher education partners, both locally and internationally. 

Welcome to the show, Dr. Ida. I'm so thankful to have this chance to speak with you today. Please tell us about yourself, your name, what you do, and why you do what you do. 

Ida: Thank you so much for having me. My name is Ida Fatimawati Adi Badiozaman. Currently, I am the Deputy Pro Vice Chancellor of Research in Swinburne Sarawak.

I do what I do because academia is my passion, and education has always been in the family. And I believe that education is something that is so critical when you're trying to build, not just talent development for the state, but also in terms of bridging a lot of the gaps that we see in the community.

So education can be an equalizer the same can be said with technology. So especially post-COVID, we have seen that these two when leveraged accordingly can help make tremendous changes. So I believe in that, in my teaching, and I believe in that also in the research that I do. 

Chuen Chuen: Education as the equalizer and its impact further enhanced with technology.

So I was actually a little bit intimidated when I saw your LinkedIn profile, and when I learned that you have won the UN Women Asia Pacific WEP awards in 2020. Can you tell us a bit about that? What was that involvement about? 

Ida: All right. So it actually started with a project that I worked on with my counterparts in Australia, and we also worked with Good Shepherd microfinance.

So our goal at that point was trying to map the kind of support that we can provide for women entrepreneurs who are underserved or perhaps marginalized within the two different ecosystems. That means that we were trying to map between two very different contexts, two different ecosystems, but ultimately trying to find what is the best way to support these vetting entrepreneurs.

So from that, because of the collaboration that we did, it led to a lot of policy changes. So there was a one-stop center that was created helped women entrepreneurs not just pitch their ideas, but also have a platform where they can sell their products, and from there, that led to the creation of an app that allowed them to sell things digitally, which helped them so much during the pandemic.

We didn't intend for this to be something that we do because we won an award. We wanted to help the community, wanted to understand both contexts, leverage both expertise, and see how best we can contribute. 

But when a colleague of mine said, Oh, this is a lot, I think you should try and go for it. And so we did and we won. And ever since then, it has opened a lot of opportunities for other women entrepreneurs as well. So it also opened my eyes in the way that there's a lot that we can do. If we work across and finding the right kind of chemistry with the right people, so we were able to help these ladies, and from there on, it has led to other projects in which we always have an outcome where it's either increased financial literacy or other forms of literacy for the underserved or the marginalized community. 

Chuen Chuen: How did you discover this passion in serving women and marginalized communities? 

Ida: I grew up with this, I must say because of my family background. So my mom is in the political arena. My father was also, giving back to the community through his numerous portfolios in education in Sarawak.

So this was pretty much my normal. I saw this growing up and I don't see anything else. And I believe that you do this because you're making a big impact in their lives. So it may be one person, but the impact was so significant that you can see the ripple effect to others as well.

So this is why I believe if the goal and you see the return of investment is so significant, it's something that is worth pursuing. 

Chuen Chuen: Really making an impact. And the best gift we can give to others in this lifetime is to elevate them.

Ida: Exactly. 

Yes. You know how hard it is. So why not create a path where you can, lift others as well? So you'll see more of the women especially if I talk about that project. More successful women entrepreneurs.

And when you see these ladies being successful and having that financial capital, that independence, that autonomy in any decisions they make in the family, you see this in their children as well. And it changes their lives. So I think that is so meaningful. 

Chuen Chuen: As a former educator, education will always have a special place in my heart. It's always very heartwarming and rewarding to see my former students, now doing very well in life. Being great parents and then that positive cycle just goes on and on.

And for me, I have this one phrase for myself. If I summarize my life in one sentence, I just want to be the gift, meaning in my interactions with people, no matter how long or short, I want to give them something that would change their lives in big and small ways as they discover what is the best possible life for themselves.

So what you're saying, it resonates with me, like we cannot save the entire world, but every one of us can do something to uplift somebody else and they in turn will carry on the good work.

Ida: Yeah, that is very true. 

Chuen Chuen: So this series of podcasts is about leaders people love. So I'm curious when you think about a leader people will love, who's the first person that comes to your mind?

Ida: I can't think of any specific individual, but I can see certain traits just. Make people gravitate to you and they, see you as a leader because of those traits and especially we have gone through such difficult, complicated times and you see those leaders in the past where you read textbooks, there must be A, B, and C. Those kinds of characteristics may not necessarily be applicable moving post-pandemic and so on.

So what I mean, particularly is having empathy. Having compassion and also having that ability to be down to the ground and try to understand that, there are various demographics, variety of individuals in the world and having a one size fits all, it's not going to work.

So having that compassion on apathy is really something that for me personally, demarks, how a leader is, and boss in that sense. We see this having a greater impact, and it's also sustainable. So the motivation within the people that you mentor or the people that you lead is a bit more lasting than someone who does not have compassion.

They may have a great vision, but if they can articulate this vision to the staff and there's no buy-in so, it won't work. So there's empathy, and compassion that's critical for me. 

Chuen Chuen: And empathy, and compassion would form the backbone to help them number one, understand the diversity and the unique traits of people on the ground.

And when you talk about sustainability because you mentioned a vision here, what does the sustainability here mean?

Ida: To me, a great leader should be able to curate a vision. That vision should be able to translate to the staff. So they should see it and say, yeah, I believe in this. I want to be part of this. To translate that you would need certain traits. You would need resources, of course. And you will also need certain strategies.

So those things I know will not happen overnight. So for me, for example as a Deputy Pro Vice-Chancellor, I had to create a research master plan 2030. So I have my vision that all. So to make this sustainable, I have to scaffold it in such a way that I break down my targets by the year.

So there's a certain maturation stage for research that I'm aiming for, but what happens in between before that actually materializes? So I need to plan it in such a way that not only do I recruit the talent, but I also retain it. So in order for them to stay, that's what I mean, sustainability.

So I need to be with them. Working with them and then strategizing with them. So collaboration also is critical. 

Chuen Chuen: So sustainable, meaning your talents are always on board and it is a cycle where we, we, sustain each other's motivation, formulation of great ideas, strategy.

I love the word curate because I teach leadership storytelling for the purpose of inspiring a compelling vision. Curation is such a big part of it. There are certain things we will include, there are certain things we have to exclude, and all that can only happen if you understand the ground and have conversations with people.

Ida: Yeah. Because at the end of the day, you can't realize a vision without your team. So that is critical to know them, to know their strengths, to know their worries and their concerns. 

I do have a formal platform where I do catch up with them either weekly or fortnightly.

I also have a lot of informal sessions with them. There's more ideas that come from our coffee chats rather than meetings, so that works as well. Academics, they live on coffee, so that works and it's just having that communication, constant, regular communication, and sometimes it's just a simple, hi, how's the project going? Or, were you able to secure that plan or things like that? Just knowing what they're up to and genuinely being concerned about, trying to help them. I think that's critical. 

Chuen Chuen: So it's close touch with the ground, regular conversations, be genuinely interested in how they are doing what they are doing. 

Ida: I think it's also important to make them realize that, just because you're the DPPCR, it doesn't mean that they can't approach you.

Cause you are the middle person between the CEO and the PPC. So you have to, relay the message to them as well. So communication has to be fluid and it has to go both 

Chuen Chuen: ways. 

So building trust then is a big part. Can I say that? 

Oh, definitely. 

Ida: Correct. 

Chuen Chuen: So I want to ask about, the female leaders' representation in academia. Because we know across the board generally women at senior leadership levels in the corporate space is lower, right? We have about 50, 50, if you talk about the diversity workers, but at higher levels is much, much lower. So specific to your case, you are one of the rare senior leaders within the university.

So how did that come about? And what were the factors that helped you become successful?

Ida: I think it's a combination of complex, but interrelated factors. So part of it is my background and having that kind of, social capital helped me to be able to grab certain opportunities.

Other than that is also great planning. As women, the fact that we are able to multitask and plan because we have certain, limitations. If we are aware of that, we can plan accordingly. And also another thing is having a network of support.

So network of support can come in the form of your family members, can come in the form of your mentors, or colleagues before. Also in the form of, other successful women leaders before you have charted the path for you. 

So those factors, when they come to create. They have helped me significantly.

So like I mentioned earlier, I started off as a teacher and then I went on to do my master's, and then I went on to do my PhD because I was very aware that with the current job market, if I wanted to be in academia, I needed that PhD. So I planned it in such a way that I juggled motherhood and all that while studying, not easy, not advisable, but can be done.

And also having a growth mindset would really help us all, especially when you're in a corporate setting. So something I'm currently doing right now is also the Oxford management online training.

I believe that I should really just keep learning. As soon as I feel, okay, I've learned everything. That's a danger. That's a red flag. So those factors make you grow. Those factors will help you in your career trajectory.

So having opportunities, grabbing those opportunities, and if there are none, you make your own opportunities. 

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. And the points that you mentioned are all very valuable. Number one is sponsorship. Number two, having very clear life goals. And I get a sense that as you plan, you're also realistic, right?

About what is achievable. What is not and also not to be too hard on ourselves that expecting ourselves to be able to do everything all at once. Like right now, I'm furthering my studies But I waited till my kids were a little bit older when I chose to do the career pivot. My youngest was already four, less needy, and needed mommy around all the time.

So I think that was a good planning on my part. 

The women role models are so important, right? Because when we don't see the role models, we cannot even imagine what is possible. Okay. That's also this other thing that is very interesting among corporate. 

It's very hard to find women allies. Personally, that's how I felt as well. What's your take on this? 

Ida: I must say in academia, it is hard. I have more male allies that have, been the kind of individuals who would talk about me in a setting and talk about my skills and say, Oh, why don't you bring her into this? She's very capable. She's done this before. It was very successful. As opposed to women. 

It could be because there are not that many of us. So that could be one. But I was able to tap into a different kind of network. So these are other working mothers who are very successful in their endeavors. So they're either high-performing lawyer, so they have their multimillion-dollar businesses. So I gravitate to them. 

So you have to be very mindful of your circle. Because from there, they are also a form of capital. Yes. But these are the people that you can rely on for strategies or just, asking about how do you do this. 

So there is another form of women ally, perhaps it's other working mothers who also juggle, the demands of work and young children and so on.

So I rely so much on that and as we grow, as mothers, We all go through the same phases, and that bond, I find it's so critical. It's so beautiful as well, that it helps you navigate, the difficulties that you face in academia, or in your own work setting, that has also helped me.

Chuen Chuen: So assembling your own board of advisors, right? 

Ida: I call them my tribe. 

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. Find your tribe. 

And what do you think about women's natural reaction towards promoting themselves or speaking about their skills, and what they bring to the table?

Ida: Okay. I'm guilty of this myself. I find it very hard to talk about what I do and my achievements. But it's something that we should really work on. And what I do in my setting, because like you said the ratio of a professorship level, associate professorship level, it's very few ladies.

So I would actively tap on their shoulders, knock on their door, and say, look, we have this mentoring program. It's called Swinburne Women's Academic Network. So what we do here is we work together to write our promotion papers. We form like almost like a group of networks of support and then we bounce ideas.

So I pursue them aggressively. Sometimes people are like, okay, I'm not ready. Maybe next year. But someone has to do that because if not, there's a tendency to just, I'm okay at this level. I'm okay to be just a lecturer or senior lecturer, or I don't know if I'm capable to take on a manager role or associate dean role.

Ida: We need to normalize talking about ourselves, our achievements. We need to be comfortable with taking big risks. So I know it's not easy, but once you start and then you have your success story to support it, it becomes very normal. So I think it's something we have as women, we have to work on.

And I myself still have to work on, talking about myself and my achievements. But I think we naturally want the work to speak for itself. I have all this, you can see it, but not everybody will be able to have access to what you do if you don't talk about it, which is why I strongly believe in updating my social media, my LinkedIn not because I want to be popular or anything but just to showcase for those who might be useful in my future collaborations, Or expanding my network to know that this is what I'm capable of and it's almost like a live cv I update all my activities there.

So you keep track and then from there, you grow your network even more. So it's augmented because it's borderless. 

And that's a perfect use of technology to close the divide. And we must normalize women speaking for themselves and speaking about their accomplishments. Just as we aim to normalize women at senior leadership levels, right? So it will inspire more women to challenge their norms and perception of what is possible. Too often we put the lid on ourselves. we must dream big and grow as well. Yeah. That's so inspiring. 

Chuen Chuen: So in your area of responsibility, what have you learned about leadership that you try to pass on?

Ida: It's very important to have a good team with you because you cannot achieve all those visions or whatever goals you've created without good team members. And it's not just good team members, you have to make sure they're high-performing. And that means that you as a leader, it's your responsibility to seek for opportunities to grow them so that they'll grow together with you, with the vision.

I think that's critical. And what I've learned as well, I would say representation matters. There's nothing more inspiring to see, Oh, what's another female professor? So once you know that representation impacted you so much, imagine how it would be for others as well.

So that becomes your role when you're up there to bring others up to, so create that pathway for them. So if you happen to be the person constantly knocking on the door to say, Apply for promotion this year. I don't mind doing that because I know sometimes someone, they might need a little push and you can be the person doing that for them.

Even pushing people for promotion is a growth opportunity, right? 

Yeah. Yeah. We have doubts we have our imposter syndrome. 

Do you come across imposter syndrome a lot? Between men, women, or equally?

Oh, I think more for women. Men are more of a risk taker. So in one project that I did with my Melbourne counterparts, we tried to understand the kind of decisions that female academics make, even embark on a promotion application.

So the men were a bit more bold in terms of their write-up. They don't even worry about risk, they just try it. As opposed to ladies who will feel that, Okay, I need to make sure I have enough in my portfolios before I even attempt. So it's a very different kind of thinking. It's also reflective of the risk-taking that I was talking about.

So men don't mind so much if they fail, but women I need to be very careful, I need to plan and things like that. So sometimes it's good, but there's also that motherhood penalty that we have to be aware of, especially in academia, because on average, to go to the next level let's say from senior lecturer to associate professor, on average, five to six for women, but it's less for men because they take the risk.

You just do it. 

Chuen Chuen: I see. Okay. So my research topic in my EDBA is on fear of failure, which then would cross over to syndrome and perfectionism. That's why I'm very interested in this topic. 

What are some strategies that have worked to help someone overcome imposter syndrome.?

Ida: When I was first doing this role, I was a head of school before and it was a big jump to the formal role, executive dean. So of course I had the imposter syndrome and I thought, Oh my God, what did I do? Why did I even try and now I'm successful now I actually have to do it.

So that means I constantly struggle with it, but I read somewhere, it talks about the biases and doubts that you have, even when you're making decisions, but you can actually leverage on those doubts and biases, and then make better decisions because you push yourself in that sense. You know that the gap and you try to gather as much info, as much intel and strategies in order to make the best decision.

So in a way that imposter syndrome, if leveraged positively, you are able to, overcome it. And I'm not saying that I fully overcome it. Once in a while, I will feel it.

So I have to fight that and just perform my best and having a successful track record. You've done this many times. You have to convince yourself you were good. You did it. It's fine. This is not the first rodeo, so that helps you as well. So there are no shortcuts, but fortunately, it comes with experience.

Maybe I can share one story that really pushed me to, just step up was one of those meetings with the ministry and a lot of other bidders for the proposal came in. So we were all in one big room and we were trying to pitch a project and we only had three minutes. So this was not even the pitching project part yet.

So I came in and, I think it's a person's unconscious bias and he thought I was there to just provide beverage for the meeting. So ever since then, I made sure when I entered a room, they knew this person was there in this capacity as a portfolio, and you have to come prepared.

That means your content, your delivery, and also how you present yourself. So as women, That is an extra thing that we have to think about. I don't necessarily know if men face this as well, but I had to make sure that all that boxes are ticked. So that's how I deal with these challenges. 

So my job then is to make sure that when I come in, there's no doubt that this person is there to present. 

Chuen Chuen: It's very real, right? I love the honesty. If we ever meet in person, you might be surprised at how small-sized I am. I'm just slightly over five feet. I think as Asians, because we are smaller, and by that, people might discount us, right?

So you're right. Every time I go into a high-stakes meeting, I have to do the extra step to prepare myself, be aware of the unconscious bias, and be very intentional about creating that presence. So that people would take us seriously. 

Ida: That's why having that network of support is also so important. Whenever you have doubts, stop talking negatively, you've done this. So they'll be there to push you, to reaffirm that, you're capable. So you need that network of support and your circle needs to be positive and always pushing you to do better. Yeah, that's very critical.

Chuen Chuen: I know your area of passion is elevating women and marginalized communities. So what do you think is the state of the world right now? When we talk about equality or equity diversity and what can education do to bridge this divide?

Ida: If you look at the current context that I'm in, which is Sarawak, there's a lot more that can be done especially when it comes to women's representation in the different portfolios. If you look at the political scene, there's just so few of them. And this is something that is quite unfortunate because we need women to be everywhere where decisions are made.

So that is something that's quite lacking. And the same goes for in the corporate world, in academia, and so on. So there's a lot more that we need to do to ensure that, there is a better representation of women. Because once women are represented, it affects the family. And when that happens, it also elevates the whole community.

Education is something that is a key, I would say, to address this. it is an equalizer, but again, That is on the premise that everyone has access to education, but that is not the case in certain contexts. So education is a right. We forget that sometimes.

And of course in Malaysian context, we can ensure that everyone has access to education if it's not politicized. It is something that is critical, education, having access to it is also something we really need to work on in the community.

Chuen Chuen: Yeah. There was a discussion on education was supposed to be the equalizer, but in some contexts, it has become the greatest source of inequality and you're right. It is about access. So what do nations, and ministries need to do to ensure access to education?

Ida: I think they need to go back to the fact that education is a right. Once they understand that, then it will not be interwoven with political discourse, sometimes even religious discourse, that's more to the setting that I'm currently in. So if that is clear and then the implementation of having this access to education. Should also by right be pretty straightforward. We are aware that demographically, geographically there are challenges, but it's not something that we cannot overcome. We have seen in fact, pandemic was an opportunity for us to look at education very differently. We have seen how it actually equalized the gap that we had before.

So we see certain students thrive with technology, being in the online setting rather than being in the physical classroom. So there's a lot of opportunities or untapped areas. It's just a matter of whether we're willing to embrace the disruption, we're willing to embrace the uncomfortableness of new things.

 Because it is something that I do a lot of research on having that hybrid option, for example, that opens up that flexibility for students to be either online or physical. So that's access that we're talking about. If you are unable to be physically there, having that online option is very beneficial for certain students who perhaps are a bit more introverted and are more comfortable with it.

With this kind of platform and these are the students who may be like not heard at all in classrooms. So there's a lot of opportunities that this is whether we're brave enough or bold enough to embrace all these changes and disruptions and see the positive side of it. 

Chuen Chuen: From the way you talk about it, I can hear that passion, that seeing technology as a positive disruptor.

And it is our mindset our fear, hesitation to embrace it. That is stopping us from creating the possibilities. But once we get over it ourselves, I think we will create so many opportunities. And COVID was probably one of those disruptors that forced us to grow, forced us to adopt new things.

So for leaders who are trying to lead change, or bring about mindset changes, so that we can empower changes, and leverage all this disruption by technology and everything else. Drawing from your experience of seeing how the teachers changed during COVID, what are the elements you think are necessary to enable our people to change their mindset? 

Ida: To change mindset it's not easy, honestly, especially if all you've known all your life is just to change to something completely different. It will take time, but it can be successful if you have the right kind of support. So if I go back to that teacher experience again, I think it's They were successful because of internal factors.

They wanted to, they have their agency, they're willing to explore, and then the resilience, tenacity as well, but when supported with an ecosystem that provides the kind of technology. And having the students who are also very ready for this, it's a perfect combination.

So in that situation, it works. You will easily see where things will fall apart if something is not there. That even let's say the institution's not willing to invest in the technology or the facilities. It's not going to work. Because as a teacher, you need that kind of support, you need those resources in order to ensure you 

are able to deliver whatever courses or objectives that you're planning for.

So it has to be the ecosystem and you yourself internally having that desire to do things differently.

Chuen Chuen: So resources is one. Number two is having a supportive environment where if they get stuck on something, a safe environment for them to ask those questions.

And when they see the students. React positively that becomes motivation. That's very good. 

 Personally, I believe, one of the important roles a leader must play is to help employees stay employable. 

What is a simple action you think a leader can do every day to help employees stay employable? 

Ida: I think there are a couple of things that we can do as leaders. I think it comes down to listening.

So listening to understand, not to react. And the growth mindset needs to be there. Definitely. Never be comfortable with, what you're doing because the world changes so rapidly.

So as a leader as well, if you have a growth mindset, you know that your team is invaluable to you. You need to make sure they grow with you. So this means I have to upskill them. So any opportunities that you have, or you tell them, okay, look. There's a program that I think might be suited for you, so you encourage them, and then you provide the right support.

So these are the small things, if you do every day and you role model it yourself, you walk the talk, then they'll see, yes this is how I acquire new skills. So this is how I make sure my staff will remain a future fit for the job.

So it's something that you have to do all the time. And as a leader, they see you modeling it and that's where they see, yes, it's possible because, like us, they also will have that doubt. or imposter syndrome as well, but really, should I even try? But you have to tell them, yeah, why not try? You try, you never know.

Chuen Chuen: So role modeling is so powerful, right? And I was doing my papers for my EDBA and it says imposter syndrome increases with age. 

So it normalizes what we feel as well, right? It's oh, I thought older and wiser, but it also means that we will doubt ourselves more often. And it's totally normal. And if you can role model, say like, hey, I see this opportunity. Of course, I'm a little bit uncomfortable, but never mind. I'm going to try anyway because if you don't try, you never know. And role modeling that growth mindset, willing to be uncomfortable, and then it will gradually inspire people to take action.

Ida: Yes, that's right. 

Chuen Chuen: Have you ever met people who have a fixed mindset? It's very hard for them. How to switch from fix to growth? 

Ida: It is honestly very hard and I think it's the environment that they've been in. So it's almost ingrained in them. This is all I know. So if it's not broken, don't fix it mindset.

So, is hard to grow that kind of person. But, we don't discount their skills. So they are still able to contribute, but in that small capacity 

it takes that kind of difficult conversations, but I must say in my experience, it's very challenging. It's not always successful and I don't fault them for it. It's just the environment that they've been in. But it does not mean that they are not able to contribute. They're just contributing very differently. So then you invest your energy in growing those who are wanting, willing, and hungry for it. 

Chuen Chuen: And who knows, like a seed one day that seed might grow.

And I think we owe it to ourselves to keep trying. While there's no one fixed formula say, Hey, how do I change convert somebody from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset?

How do I make people open and receptive and excited about changes? We have to keep trying. Leave no stones unturned. 

And I love what you said about the empathy, compassion, because we may not get to choose the kind of team members we have on our teams. Very often we inherit them, right? But with empathy and compassion, when they know that we understand them and we do not label them, nor do we discount them.

When they feel respected, I feel that's where the power of being a leader people love to work with and work for comes in. Because for a leader who I respect very much, I'm willing to change. I'm willing to give it a shot and who knows, maybe that's a secret formula to converting someone from a fixed to growth mindsets.

Awesome. So it's great to have you on this podcast, Dr. Ida. And I really look forward to meeting you in person and to read all about your papers. This gender divide is taking too long for us to close. And I'm hopeful, maybe one of your papers is going to really do it, achieve, move everything forward for all of us and I can't wait to see what can happen.

Ida: Thank you so much for having me.