Vinesh Sukumaran: He kept telling me that you are so attached Vinesh to your concept. You're attached to your philosophy. You're attached to your theories. You're attached to what you believe in and so on. You gotta be detached. So detachment is everything. You have to be detached from life. And then at the end of this I told him, look, I think you're really attached to this idea of detachment.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Welcome to Agile Leaders Conversations where executives, business leaders, and experts from all sectors come together and share leadership insights around leading in today's workplaces. They will be sharing some tips on how they use the agile mindset to make sense of the complexities and lead with authenticity and ease.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Hi everyone, my name is Chuen Chuen. And I'm an author, an executive coach for the Fortune 500, a speaker and a facilitator. I specialize in leadership agility, helping organizations and leaders grow their agile mindset so that they can sustain the success in both life and career. And in this episode, I'm so happy to have Mr. Vinesh Sukumaran as my guest. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: He's a positive psychologist based of Bangalore, India. And as an organization development consultant, he has trained and coached over 20,000 people to bring about behavioral change and find more meaning in work and life. Vinesh is a result-oriented consultant for several individuals and corporations like Hewlett Packard, Boeing, Coca-Cola, Mercedes-Benz, and over a hundred others.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: He has a master's degree in psychology from the University of Missouri USA, and his research was based on applications of positive psychology and sports psychology for better coaching, leadership and performance. He is also the author of the book From Behavior to Well-being. Welcome to the show Vinesh. Would you share a little about yourself please?

Vinesh Sukumaran: Thanks a lot for having me over. Thanks for mentioning my book. I've also read your book- the 8 Paradoxes of Leadership Agility and there are quite a few insights that I gathered from there, so I'm looking forward to having this interesting chat with you.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So I'm wondering Vinesh, after reading my book-8 Paradoxes of Leadership Agility, what are your general thoughts after reading it?

Vinesh Sukumaran: you know, I just started reading it to see what the book was about, but it turned out to be something which was pretty useful. It was great to see somebody like you who's also learned a lot of lessons from leaders they've coached. You also mentioned that in your acknowledgement, and that's true for all of us who are coaches, trainers, consultants. I think our biggest teachers are our clients. 

Vinesh Sukumaran: And you also talk about there's an optimal level of stress. And when I read that, I said wow! This is something that I totally agree with because in recent times, there's been a lot of research by people like Kelly McGonigal who are talking about how stress is not a bad thing. It's your idea about stress that's a bad thing.

Vinesh Sukumaran: But I think even intuitively, from a long time I thought stress was a pretty useful thing and there's a right level of stress, which will be good for people to function. So that's my first thoughts. One thing that sticks out is your focus on values.

Vinesh Sukumaran: You talk about values. You talk about how values are important thing. And as coaches, the constant challenge is to get people who we coach to do not even the things that we want, but the things that they want. Talking about value-based leadership, value-based coaching, I think is an important thing.

Vinesh Sukumaran: And I like the fact Chuen, that you're being really honest in your book in terms of saying exactly what you can deliver, and what you can't tell them, right? Like for example, you mentioned that, you can't make clients' problems go away. I like that very honest, open, transparent attitude because I'm a little wary of somebody who shows up and says, I can make all your problems go away.

Vinesh Sukumaran: I'm gonna be thinking, what's that about? Yeah. And of course, I like the crux of your book- the RE 4 model, which is about reconstructing, refreshing, renewing, rebuilding. Though people might have seen this happen, I like how you've given structure and definition to it.

Vinesh Sukumaran: I like the fact that you talk about metaphors because typically business books are constantly appealing to one side of the brain, right? It's logical. It's reasoning and those sort of things. But this other side of metaphors, because a lot of times we live our lives based on some metaphors that we build around ourselves saying, oh, I'm a hardworking guy. Money doesn't come easily. These are stories that you create. Like I keep telling my clients, sometimes we create our own clubs, and we become members of our own clubs, and then we don't know how to get out. 

Vinesh Sukumaran: So, I like the fact that you don't just talk about the metaphors, but you tell them what's your metaphor now? What's your new metaphor? And even make them draw it out which I found that idea to be quite interesting because it gets people to explore things from a new light which appeals to the emotional creative side of the brain. And that is fascinating.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: It is the notion, our idea of what stress is that maybe leaders need to revisit and I think that's connected with your book on well-being, and we'll go into that later. Metaphors, yes. I love them. I think we have two sides of the brain. Why not use the entire brain? I think our system has always made us very cognitive and logical. And that's probably tapping on half or way less of the brain, and what kind of possibilities, perspectives can we unlock if we tap on the entire brain? So now, so there are eight paradoxes in the book, so I'm wondering which one resonated strongly with you?

Vinesh Sukumaran: One paradox, I think it was obvious to me when I read the book, you as a coach and having worked with leaders probably came across, 16, 20, 25 paradoxes and you handpicked the top eight right? There's this one paradox where you talk about principled versus adaptable and how you have to stay true to your true north.

Vinesh Sukumaran: You talk about the story of Kelly, she tries to re-look at her role. Refocuses on her priorities, and she takes a family on that trip and so on. I really like that paradox because I think that really spoke to me. A lot of times, what we are battling with is sticking to one thing really strongly, whatever that is.

Vinesh Sukumaran: And there's a need to be adaptable. I've also seen my own paradoxes, right? For example, when I coach people, especially leaders. Sometimes they're thinking, should I focus on my own career as a director, as CEO, or should I focus on what's good for my company? Not just in the corporate world. Should I focus on being happy right now? Or should I do something not so comfortable? I don't feel like going for a walk, but I'm going to do it. So that I feel happy later. So I think there's constant paradoxes.

Vinesh Sukumaran: Some years ago I spoke with with the martial artist, and we were talking about this whole idea of attachment.

Vinesh Sukumaran: So he kept telling me that you are so attached Vinesh to your concept. You're attached to your philosophy. You're attached to your theories. You're attached to what you believe in, and so on. And you've gotta be detached. So detachment is everything. You have to be detached from life. And then at the end of this I told him, look, I think you're really attached to this idea of detachment. So that makes two of us. We are both attached. 

Vinesh Sukumaran:  Just like that in your book, you talk about both. Like tasks are important, but also the bigger pictures are important. You talk about focusing on people as well as focusing on relationships and so on. There is a sense in the book that the middle path is the right thing to do. But what I like about this paradox is that, it's good to be adaptable. It's good to say I don't have to do both.

Vinesh Sukumaran: I'm going to just choose one. I'm gonna choose one over the other. I remember in one of the interviews, Salman Rushdie says, if you don't stand for anything, then who are you? So, sometimes it's good for people who read your book to realize that this is what Chuen says- to do a bit of both or do the right combination of both in the circumstances of your life. But it's also okay for me to be adaptable and just choose one thing. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: This is great. I think the world is never in black and white. And there's a time and place for being principled, with being attached to something and being highly flexible and adaptable. There's never a best solution and I think the right solution for different individuals, different leaders really depends on the context, their northstar, their moral compass.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So it might not be in the middle. And sometimes people just want their peace of mind that whatever I'm choosing, it may not be the perfect solution, but this is my solution. This is my decision. Yeah, I love that perspective. So there's also this definition of leadership agility and of the various paradoxes in the book.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So how do you see both of these, especially working with so many different companies? 

Vinesh Sukumaran: You define paradox quite well in the book, where one thing and the opposite are both true in a given case or context.

Vinesh Sukumaran: And I think that's an interesting way to look at it because I live in Bangalore, India. India's a place full of paradoxes. Various parts of the world where they think we are an extremely poor country, not realizing that we have four or five of the richest people in the world from India.

Vinesh Sukumaran: Likewise, there's this education paradox where we have a lot of uneducated people also in the country, while we have some of the most educated people in the world who are from India. I could relate to that idea. And the opposite of that being true. In terms of leadership agility, you talked about agility- It's about being flexible to go through the various uncertainties and complexities and still come out and function from a place of authenticity. That's really what you're essentially saying about leadership agility.

Vinesh Sukumaran: I like that idea of authenticity about being real and being genuine because I think that's a big part. Doesn't matter how agile you are, if that's not what you feel, if that's not what you really think, it's not going to work for you. You're just going to be acting and putting on a facade and sooner or later that's going to blow.

Vinesh Sukumaran: From my point of view and from my work, one of the big drivers of this leadership agility is what happens in the market. Quite a few times, the market's going to tell you what to do. Like the pandemic, during the lockdown. There was this huge shift towards online training.

Vinesh Sukumaran:  Sometimes clients call you and they tell you how to be agile. They tell you we are looking at online training, do you do online training or not? And if you say no, then you're losing your chance to be an agile leader. Likewise, it's not just about the pandemic, I remember some years ago, a client said we could do a leadership training, but each of the challenges are different.

Vinesh Sukumaran: So the client's telling you what to do. And I said, how about having a training program for a day? And then I meet all of them on a one-to-one coaching sessions for two days. And that was a new model which came out of the client's idea. So I think it's a good idea to listen to what the market is telling you.

Vinesh Sukumaran: I also want to add this popular quote which says how you do anything is how you do everything. And there is a sense among people like coach, that I'm gonna be agile. I'm gonna be an agile leader only in office. But you it's quite difficult to put that button on when you come to work.

Vinesh Sukumaran: So you have to be an agile leader, even when you're organizing a party on the weekend at home. You're gonna be an agile leader when you go shopping and everywhere, and that's something which you carry with you. 

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Chuen Chuen Yeo: I particularly like this sentence that you said just now. How you do anything is how you do everything. In our coaching world, we are always advocating for leaders, for very busy professionals to embrace both the personal side and the professional side because that is the way you can lead with ease and authenticity. Vinesh, right now there is this movement, with pandemic, no one is being excused.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: All organizations or governments or individuals are having to flex and adapt. And as we now look forward into building better businesses, what do you think are some areas that leaders should consider? I think especially now looking at well-being as a hot topic. So what do you think leaders should consider?

Vinesh Sukumaran: I don't want to talk as if I have all the answers for a post pandemic workplace. Because even the leading organizations in the world, like the W H O are saying, we don't know what's really happening with the virus.

Vinesh Sukumaran: We don't know what's gonna happen next. Is there going to be three vaccines or a yearly vaccine? I want to say that I'm not really sure what exactly is going to happen because I don't think anybody is. But there are some things which I've been telling my clients, leaders for organizations which I think is going to work.

Vinesh Sukumaran: The first thing is that I think it's a great idea to stop fighting. So you're from Singapore and I spoke to a client. This client wanted me to do a program for their leaders to get them back to office. And I was talking to the HR person and he said, we gotta get back to office.

Vinesh Sukumaran: And so I asked him, why do you think people should come back to office? If I do this program, and it's the main agenda of the leadership program, they're going to think, Vinesh Sukumaran is just firing the gun off the CEO's shoulder.

Vinesh Sukumaran: Or they're going to ask me, why should we get back to office? So the HR person told me something about the collaboration, this and that and so on. And in the end I asked him, after the conversation's over, a lot of times the truth comes out after the conversation's over. After you've shaken hands and said thank you.

Vinesh Sukumaran: I said, hey! Now that the meeting's over, what do you wanna do? You're the HR manager, do you wanna get back to office? And he said no, I don't want to. I think one of the key things is to stop fighting it. And sometimes it's a good idea to do what's worked for you. And if you feel you've learned useful lessons during the pandemic about saving money, Saving thousands of dollars every month on real estate because you don't really need an office. Maybe you should do that. 

Vinesh Sukumaran: Maybe if you learn that teams can work as well without traveling. I think that's something you should do. There was a story and an article that was published and this anecdote over a decade ago. Who was the biggest competitor to British Airways.

Vinesh Sukumaran: When they asked people this question, people said, Singapore Airlines? Is it Lufthansa? And it turns out that the biggest competitor is video conferencing and Cisco's video conferencing software. Because people talk face to face. And that time video conferencing was pretty new. Now it's all over the place. 

Vinesh Sukumaran: You didn't have to go take a flight and go to another city to meet somebody. So just like that, if you have realizations during the pandemic. You gotta use that. I think that's really the first big lesson. The other thing is I'm just reminded of what Jeff Bezos mentioned in one of his interviews, and he said, some things are always going to be the right things to do.

Vinesh Sukumaran: Customers will always want something of good quality. I don't think that's going to change. Customers always going to want something faster . Those things are going to be universal and they're going to last forever. 

Vinesh Sukumaran: The other thing is, this whole idea of building back. Many companies around this mindset of let's go back to where we are. I think if you're trying to go back, then you've learned nothing. The idea is to build forward, and maybe you're going to change slightly, moderately, and completely. I think that's a good way to look at the post pandemic.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Excellent. So I was furiously typing notes now. So many great things that you said. I'm gonna recap for the listeners. Number one, the truth comes out after the conversation. I just had a coaching conversation this morning.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: You want people to come to you with the truth at the conversation, not after that. And not to tell everybody except you because you need to know the truth. I think that's one. I think it's an excellent leadership reminder. The second point that you said, maybe it's for leaders to challenge their perception and bias about what a good workforce is.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: And in my coaching model, the second step is refresh your lens. Is there a perception? Is there a bias, prejudice that no longer work? What if having a good workforce is not related to a workplace? You know what if that's that, I think something to consider. And the third thing is customers still want the same thing regardless of where you are doing your work from.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: They still want great products, better quality, delivered faster. And what if you could do all that, still satisfy your customers no matter where you're working, does that give you more breath, more resources to experiment with? And I particularly like what you said just now instead of building back better, how about building forward?

Chuen Chuen Yeo: We are not trying to get the line back to zero. I think maybe the perception is the pandemic sets us back many steps, and we are just trying to get back to the starting line. As we are now building, rebuilding all businesses, all work structure, systems, what if we are building forward as well?

Chuen Chuen Yeo: What kind of possibilities can that bring. And is that also a great time for us to drop something that isn't working well? Wonderful. Vinesh, would you have a couple minutes just to share a little bit about your book, please? 

Vinesh Sukumaran: I was writing for a few magazines in India with health, wellness, and lifestyle magazines. I had a few hundred articles, so I published just 64 of those articles. So the first thing I wanna say about the book is that it's handpicked. 

Vinesh Sukumaran: Mostly as a coach, as a trainer, I'm working with people's behavior and bringing about behavioral change. And this behavior could be something as simple as showing up to office on time or just showing up on time anywhere. Or it could be something even more complicated like learning to use cloud computing.

Vinesh Sukumaran: But each of these is a behavior and one of the simple and easy ways in which I define behavior in the book instead of behaviors. Anything that you do. If you wake up early, that's a behavior. If you drink every night, that's a behavior. If you work out regularly, that's a behavior and so on.

Vinesh Sukumaran: So I'm saying, if you want to change anything, if you want the results you want. Even if you wanna just be happy, it takes practice, so there's a lot of research which shows vacations are supposed to be happy times, but the time before the vacation when you plan, and the time after the vacation, when you think are actually better than the real vacation because you're gonna carry yourself with you to that vacation. 

Vinesh Sukumaran: So it's a good idea that you develop good behaviors before you go in for that vacation. And then when you carry yourself with you, you'll have the right person in the vacation. So that's really one of the key ideas in the book- changing behavior and eventually that changes the results and changes the way you feel.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: We definitely need to look at ways to make behavior changes permanent, and I'm sure all listeners viewers right now will be interested to learn more about the outstanding Vinesh. I've learned so much from the conversation with you. So I'll include his social media links and as well as the link to his book.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So, please feel free to reach out to him. And I also encourage you to please grab a copy of 8 Paradoxes of Leadership Agility. It has been such a great time speaking with you Vinesh, and let's stay in touch.