Raymond Tay: I personally believe that we can make a difference. I will try my best to empower and inspire my team to do it with me. I will show them and present first. So once they see how I do it or learn the content of what I cover, then they can do by themselves.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Welcome to agile leaders conversations where executives, business leaders, and experts from all sectors come together and share leadership insights around leading in today's workplaces. They will be sharing some tips on how they use the agile mindset to make sense of the complexity and lead with authenticity and ease. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Hi everyone. Welcome to this episode of agile leaders conversations. My name is Chuen Chuen and I'm an author and an executive coach for the Fortune 500. I'm also a speaker and a facilitator. I specialize in leadership agility, helping organizations and leaders grow the agile mindset so that they can sustain the success in both life and career. And I'm happy to have Mr. Raymond Tay in this episode of agile leaders conversations.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Raymond is an HR professional. For more than a decade, Raymond has been involved in human capital development for both youth and adult professionals. He has worked with numerous organizations from both public and private sectors and developed many tailored evidence based learning solutions for adult learners in the areas of leadership, creativity, and innovation.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: He's also a change coach and a clinical hypnotherapist. Now, Raymond, would you like to share a few words about yourself? 

Raymond Tay: Personally, I have the passion to help people. That's why I pick up quite a number of instrument and methodology to help others like change management, hypnotherapy, emotional intelligence, or even conflict-resolution, mediation. So, I would say before we help others, we also help ourselves.

Raymond Tay: It's also quite aligned because human resources work with people coming up with policy that will impact the work life of our colleagues and policy can attract talent.

Raymond Tay: If we make the policy attractive in the way, increasing the welfare or increasing the budget for team bonding. Develop our leaders so that they can connect and give relevant feedback or constructive feedback to their staff. So those element of HR can really transform the workplace and improve the working relationship in the organization.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: We are now talking about building back better. HR has the instrumental role to play in making workplaces better. So I invited Raymond to the show because he read my book, the eight paradoxes of leadership agility. So I'm wondering, Raymond, what are your thoughts of the book after reading it? 

Raymond Tay: So that gave another dimension to leadership because there are so many framework, models. So it is nice to know more about leadership agility. Especially in today's world, agility will really help us in managing and navigating changes.

Raymond Tay: As we know that we are working with a diverse workforce. Different people prefer to be led. Some people may want to be inspired. Some people may want to be instructed or some people will want us to focus on the teams.

Raymond Tay: As a leader, your book gives us the different dimension of how a leader can act because staying put in any of this dimension for long never get any changes to be an agile. We may be stuck with certain leadership style that some time in the past may have worked for us.

Raymond Tay: I think in your case study and coaching, you have also helped them. If our strength can become our weaknesses as the organization move on or there's a change of people. So the winning formula for leadership style may change.

Raymond Tay: Just like our politician, our leaders, we can see the style of leadership change from more dominating to more consultative or facilitative. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah. So many good points. I want to just summarize them for all the listeners. So what Raymond is saying that is that your winning formula will change according to the life cycle of the organization.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: We are seeing it happen in politics in businesses, in government organizations- everywhere. So there's something for everyone to take note. What is your winning formula right now? And your strengths can become your weaknesses. And I think that one big point that is really important for all leaders to be mindful of.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: We are dealing with a diverse workforce, and everyone wants to be led in a different way. Some may want to be empowered. Some wants to be directed. Some value a lot more the relationship. Some wants you to focus on the team. So it is very important for leaders to be able to flex the styles. And as Raymond, as you were talking, I can sense that there probably were a couple of paradoxes that resonated with you strongly. So could you share more on perhaps just one? 

Raymond Tay: Definitely. There are quite a number of paradoxes that made me reflect. Because even myself, I think each of us have our own preference of leading. Your paradox have also let us reflect on what are the possibility and also challenge us not to be stuck in one area or one dimension.

Raymond Tay: One paradox that is like a dilemma for myself would be enforcing versus empowering. Because I also lead a team. So at times, I need to see, should I enforce my staff to do the things or should I spend a bit more time to empower them to tell them the why?

Raymond Tay: In my own experiences, for those things that is becoming more routine. Like for example in my work area is processing certain application, preparing document. Once some things is more routine and predictable, I will say that my style is more enforcing. If my staff is not doing, I will remind more like you've done this, can you send a reminder to the stakeholders? 

Raymond Tay: Empowering will be more on those work that are a bit more ambiguous. That is a point where I need to be more inspiring and empowering. 

Raymond Tay: So for example, in my work, we need to communicate and we need to present and attract talent. So when they come and attach to our organization, we need to have some time to attract them. In that effect can be done by my team or can be done by another team.

Raymond Tay: But I felt that if we can do our part to connect, we can help to attract more talent. I personally believe that we can make a difference, then I will try my best to empower and inspire my team to do it with me. I will show them and present first. So once they see how I do it or learn the content of what I cover, then they can do by themselves.

Raymond Tay: So in summary, I think those work that is routine and predictable, more on reminding. Getting things done don't require so much communication why? Because the staff really didn't know why they are doing it because that is like a bread and butter. Only when new work, when we go into new space, also when the work is ambiguous, then I think that part, leaders need to give clarity on what we need to do and whether our team need do or don't do it. If wanna do it, then we need provide the stronger why.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: What you're also saying that enforcing versus empowering, there's never one fixed style because it is a range of possibilities and it's important that leaders are not stuck in using just one style. And you also pointed out something that's very pertinent these days. Very common.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: There's a lot of ambiguity. A lot of gray areas. New job responsibility pops up, but it's not always clear whose responsibility is that. And when that happens, if it's beneficial to the team, provide a strong "why" for people and make it clear. And that might be a little bit more enforcing in that approach because you wanna lay down clearly why we are doing this and how does success look like?

Chuen Chuen Yeo:  What you said caught my attention. Not to misapply what empowerment means, because as you were saying, there was a clear process of how you get people up to speed before you empower them to do things. In my coaching practice, I do come across sometimes, leaders who say, oh, I'm gonna empower them, but actually we are throwing them into the deep end. And different people want different things.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Some people love that exploration, swimming in a deep end, and learning how to do things on their own, but some people will feel totally overwhelmed. So it's,  another nuance that will be beneficial for leaders to check it out and to really see, in this situation, this scenario, is it better that I take a more enforcing stance or more empowering stance. If I'm in empowering, how am I doing it?

Chuen Chuen Yeo: What's your definition of leadership agility?

Raymond Tay: My own definition of agility to be flexible and adaptable. Because in the world that we live in, as we have also mentioned is uncertain, volatile or ambiguous. All these terms that people use to describe our environment. So when this is the environment that we are living in, then we have to be agile to be able to navigate and find new ways of working, new ways of leading and even adopt technology to help us. But that actually plays a huge challenge for leaders because all of us have our own primary or dominant style. So, I think all leaders will face this challenge.

Raymond Tay: It's not so easy to flex at times. If a person is introvert leader, how can you transform the person to become extrovert leader to be able to connect, make small talk, build relationship for introvert leaders. It would be tough.

Raymond Tay: Then there will be a personal development journey for all of us to make small improvement. So I would say that it's tough and it's not easy for us to be agile. For someone who has been enforcing so much in their life, can they now switch and become empowering?

Raymond Tay: It's not an instant switch that people can make. And definitely that's why we need coaches. So even myself, I have a coach to help me to transform my own personal struggle. Conscious and unconscious mind, we need to both be aligned. First, I work with clients consciously, logically. They know this is not the right way, but emotionally they do other things. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: That's where therapy can be very powerful. It's something in the subconscious that's inhibiting and stopping them from adopting the more productive behavior and flex their style. 

Raymond Tay: Another thing that we need to be mindful of is our habit. Our habits already have been formed. The way we work is like our habits. So if we wanna change the way we work to be more principled, to be more agile, we have to change our habit. And changing habit, we all know that it's not easy. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Like changing mindset. So I think in the market, when people talk about agility, they ask me, oh, Chuen Chuen what do you do? What is agility? Agility refers to the mindset. So it's synonymous with the agile mindset. And my observation is out there in a lot of leadership development programs. They focus on the skills without adequately addressing the mindset.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: And I think Raymond, you are right in pointing out that just by reading a book, how much can you change? How much can you undo years of habit? And that's why it's designed as like a work book where you have questions to bring you through. And I think that it depends on individual's level of self awareness and ability to reflect.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: But of course there are always professionals like you and I who will be always there to support leaders through this transformation and for different people, how they transform will be different. Like it could be a professional coaching, like what I do and what Raymond does as well. Or it could be more in depth. Like what Raymond does for clients who needs hypnotherapy. Because I, myself, I've gone through that process. And it was truly transformational. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: What do you think HR professionals should consider as they build back a better HR post pandemic?

Raymond Tay: As we know many organization during the COVID had gone into remote working. What is missing perhaps now will be increase the engagement, and level of communication. Especially from the top management where they have come up with new initiative, it has to be communicated down to the last man.

Raymond Tay: Normally, there's a gap whether the last man has heard what is the plan of the top man. In the recent month, I also have attended one dialogue session where this social service leader have shared that the challenge of any strategic plan. Make sure the strategic plan don't stay in the meeting room.

Raymond Tay: We know that there's certain confidentiality in top of some plans, but once it's approved better cascade and communicate, not still staying the meeting room, in the board room or the office. 

Raymond Tay: So that is another part of the change management where it'll come up with coms plan. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Sure. A more thorough, more robust one. Such that very last person gets that big direction. What are we doing right now? 

Raymond Tay: Sometimes it's not a complicated thing. Like government when they come a new policy, how can we ensure that every citizen knows the policy. So make sure that the top leader communicates. Come up with a video or come up with flyers or posters, emails.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Agree. I think one taletell sign for leaders listening right now. If you frequently find yourself asking this question, but they should know. Don't they know? Don't they know what we are working towards? They should know. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Once you use the word they should. I assume that they know, that's an assumption. And that's something not going well with the communication plan. Because so many times, after working with hundreds of leaders, it's not done.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: It's not done enough. We are not communicating in multiple ways. We are not flexing our communication style. We are only communicating in one single way. And like what Raymond said, every leader has a dominant style, has a preferred style and that applies to communication as well. And if we can be a flexible agile communicator, we will be able to close all the gaps to ensure that a strategic plan doesn't just stay in the meeting room. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Any particular initiatives that HR should consider right now as they move towards post pandemic? 

Raymond Tay: There are certain practices and core function of what HR need to do. Once we do those core function, it should be helpful whether is it post or pre COVID. Staff engagement, for example, whether post or pre it's always there. Or when we come up with three years, five years plan, it's always there, whether post or pre COVID, planning, improvement, and communication has to be ongoing.

Raymond Tay: It's not something that is new. It's just that we need to do more or be willing to try new things or new ways of communicating to ensure that everyone feel connected. In any organization, is make sure that everyone feel passionate and a sense of belonging. I would say that post pandemic will be bring back the sense of belonging. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah. This is good to hear. It's the emotional part, right? Raymond, you are not saying or make sure they achieve good outcomes. It's a sense of belonging, passion, motivation.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: This is why you and I can click, I think because we are people oriented, and that's what leaders need to consider right now. Even the first paradox tasks versus people. We need to think of how we gonna engage people better.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Such that they will strive towards the great outcomes. We're not saying the outcomes are not important. They are still important, but the way we get to it is through engaging the people.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Great. Now I'm sure, right now, listeners, viewers will be interested to know more about Raymond. And I will include Raymond's social links in the show notes. So please feel free to reach out to him. And I encourage you to grab a copy of the eight paradoxes of leadership agility that's available in all print and digital formats globally. So really good to have you on this show, Raymond, let's keep in touch. 

Raymond Tay: Thank you.