Earn Meng Chan: So I used to stress my team a lot during this period of time. Sometimes I'll get angry, and I get them to work over time. It's only on hindsight that I come to realize that times like this sometimes we forgot the balance between task and people. But for me, the lucky thing is because I have been with a team for a while, they can understand the need. They just accept it and just move on. But we will not be as lucky all the time.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Welcome to agile leaders conversations where executives, business leaders and experts from all sectors come together and share leadership insights around leading in today's work places. They will be sharing some tips on how they use the agile mindset to make sense of the complexities and lead with authenticity and ease.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Hi everyone. My name is Chuen Chuen, and I'm an author, an executive coach for the fortune 500, a speaker and a facilitator. I specialize in agile leadership helping organizations and leaders achieve success by first growing the agile mindset, so that they can be more responsive to consumer and employee needs.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: I'm so happy to have you listening into this episode of agile leaders conversations. And today my guest is Chan Earn Meng, an HR veteran leader. Earn Meng has been in the HR scene for over 20 years and has a wide range of experience leading HR functions in the semiconductor industry, financial services, and also construction.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: And prior to that. Earn Meng served in a Singapore armed forces for six years. I'll invite Earn Meng to share a little about himself. 

Earn Meng Chan: So happy to be here. In fact it is rare opportunity that I get interviewed I think what make it happen is I bought the book from Chuen Chu en and I read it, and it was an amazing book. So I think today we're going to talk a little bit about my experience about reading and using the book. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: That's great. So good to have you. I know it's a busy day for you and thanks so much for taking time. Squeeze out a little bit of time to have this conversation. 

Earn Meng Chan: My pleasure.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So let's jump right into it. You have read my book, the eight paradoxes of leadership agility. Could you share your general thoughts about it please? 

Earn Meng Chan: First, the look and feel of the book is fantastic. When I first get hold of the book, the design is so clean and the paper quality is just fantastic.

Earn Meng Chan: Now I got a better perspective of the book and indeed, the book just got this idea out very well. We're always moving up and down. But I think the concept and the framework in this book actually help us realize that we're going down at certain times and how we can move up again.

Earn Meng Chan: So, my general view about the book is very readable. It's a very structured, highly readable book. About three parts. One is regarding the foundation of what is agility, and then we go into the 8 paradoxes, and I absolutely love the way that is being structured. Starting with stories, stories that we can really resonate.

Earn Meng Chan: And then we introduce as easy way of how we can use your RE Four coaching concept. And they end off by the third portion where there are templates for us to apply and reflect. So I don't know, whether is it because of your engineering background that it becomes so structured, but it's fun to me.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Definitely met some partners along the way that gave feedback. So I think even in the designing of the book is an agile process as well. You try something. I thought it's a fabulous idea. I try it. I get some feedback and people tell you, oh, actually I don't have such a pleasant experience because it's structured this way. Why don't you try the other way? 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So I think being able to take in suggestions, ask the right questions, also identifying key partners to make this happen. And hearing from you, I think everything that you've described down from the cover page, the way the cover is so clean, and to the point. It's part of the whole branding process, so good to hear from somebody else and all that. That this design intentions that goes behind it and that you as a reader can really see it. And you talked about paradoxes that you like, so was there a particular one that resonated strongly with you? 

Earn Meng Chan: Oh, yes. There's one. It's the task versus people. Yeah. We're all very task oriented. But we also got people that we need to take care of. So a lot of time, I think what straddle always in between this, and sometimes we steer ourselves towards one. It happens to me a lot of time where we are very task focused generally. Lately there is this thing that really happens to me where it is pandemic, and in the construction industry where I'm in now. It is a very tough time at this moment. 

Earn Meng Chan: So our workers, we have a lot of blue collar workers and they're from India and Bangladesh. And they just wanted to go back because live here is just living the dormitories locked in. You can't go anywhere and just wanna go back. So I've been trying to persuade them that you have to stay. So it is actually a pretty stressful time.

Earn Meng Chan: And then I also stress my team- my HR team. We gotta talk to them. Make sure that they stay, because we have to carry our work, especially now we cannot get foreign workers into Singapore in this moment. So whoever stays is actually a very precious resource for us. 

Earn Meng Chan: So I actually stressed my team a lot during this period of time. Sometimes I'll get angry, and I get them to work over time. It's only on hindsight that I come to realize that times like this sometimes we forgot the balance between task and people. But for me, the lucky thing is that because I have been with a team for a while, so they can understand the need, and they just accepted it and just move on. But we will not be as lucky all the time. Yeah. So this is something that really resonated with me. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So there were times where you realized that maybe I'm going over to the task side, because I'm so concerned that all this work that has to go on. And then sometimes, maybe in the interaction, you push a little bit harder than you would like on hindsight.

Earn Meng Chan: That's right. Yeah. In fact, all the eight paradoxes, they are all so real. Another one that maybe I want to share and talk about which also resonate with me very well. It is about executing and inspiring. Because a lot of time, we all go on the execution mode. We will always talk about what to do and how to do things. And we forget about why are we doing things and the meaning of what are we doing? 

Earn Meng Chan: Yeah, so I thought this resonated with me very well, especially the character that you use in the story- soft-spoken Prakash.

Earn Meng Chan: I thought it was a very nice little story where this engineer just push and get his work done and cannot understand why his people just couldn't see what he saw. So he was getting frustrated. We will sometimes fall into situations like this as well. And when we tell people to do work, I think a lot of time is it happens where people just take punch card where they will not put their heart and soul into it.

Earn Meng Chan: So, whatever you get out of it is probably an ordinary standard kind of job. But if we can let people know and tell people why are we doing this. What's the meaning behind we're doing it. Probably we'll be able to notch up the performance much better. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah. I think all very good points. I want to highlight them for the listeners.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: I think the first issue that Earn Meng mentioned, that's a very tough issue because work has to go on and with the ongoing pandemic, there are certain job functions where resource is an issue and there's no perfect answer. There's no quick solution to all that. And what you're saying, when you talk about tasks versus people is really about the approach. How can you use your approach and influence such that, it's easier for people. Because these are really tough times. That's the first learning I take away from you. For me, it's the first time up close and personal that I hear opinions from the ground. Whatever I know about this industry is more from the paper, so I really value your very authentic sharing.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: And the second one, when you talk about executing versus inspiring. One question is, if you feel that, how come I'm the only one who can see the future, the light at the end on the tunnel? And how come everybody's not seeing what I'm seeing?

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Then it's about bringing people on the same page. And if you want employees and teams to perform above average, then inspiring is probably the way to go because that's the only time you get real good quality work and output from people because they are inspired. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So, there's this definition of leadership agility in the book, from your lens now, what does leadership agility mean to you? 

Earn Meng Chan: Leadership agility. It is about being fast. It's about being adaptable, being responsive. And I believe that in this environment, this is something that we really need to. Everything is now in a instant. We can actually get information just by pressing the phone.

Earn Meng Chan: We always say that Google is now our bestfriend. So information comes in an instant, and we got millennials that is coming into the workforce and they're exposed already to automatic response and engagement. I believe this is something that we need to constantly be aware. That we have to be agile. 

Earn Meng Chan: But I must say that this mindset will take time, and it's not easy to cultivate this mindset. Because a lot of us are still in a more bureaucratic world where policy rules. Anything that is against what we don't really want to do, we'll always say that policy says so. Because that's a very safe way of approaching work. Ultimately, if it's not correct, no, it's not me, it's the policy. But I believe that things have to change. 

Earn Meng Chan: The environment is changing. The competition landscape is changing. The expectations of our employees and the customers are also changing. So I believe that we have to move away from this more traditional way of doing thing to adapt to a newer way of approaching our operations and business.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah. So it's not only just being fast. Fast and also being aware of evolving needs of consumers, changing needs of employees. The point you mentioned about millennials is extremely true. I think Gallup released research statistics. In four years, 75% of the workforce will be millennials. In fact, some of my students, are already in the workforce, and some of them are really taking up leadership positions. So I can really see them rising. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: At the same time, I think policies still serve a good purpose. But how do we then get the balance between those two where things are well thought out, things are structured. There's a process. There's a way things are being done.  At the same time, how do you remain relevant? 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Some time back, I used this metaphor of the dinosaur. Don't become extinct because if it take too long to respond, you are not evolving according to the environment, then you can become extinct. So something for all organizations to really self check and keep a vigilant eye on what is really happening. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: And sooner they embrace what's really happening, first stage of RE four coaching model- reconstruct the map. See that your consumers are different. Your employees are different. They want different things. Now you have to move in order to be relevant. I really like this.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: So what should HR leaders consider as they build back better HR while the pandemic's still going on? 

Earn Meng Chan: HR at this moment gotta play a very pivotal and critical role in engaging our workforce and also getting our leaders to realize that times are changing. I think one of the problems for leaders, including myself sometimes we are far away. And that is natural because of the hierarchy that's going up.

Earn Meng Chan: When you are far away from the front, the ability to feel what is really going on on the ground and the reality it is always a challenge. So I think for us, as a leader and also as HR, not only ourselves, but we also need to encourage our people, our leaders, to be able to go to the ground to talk and to engage our people and also our customers. 

Earn Meng Chan: So I believe that this is something that we can do as an HR or as a leader. And the other thing is post pandemic wise, I think it helps us realize that crisis can come at any time. So this is a very important and immediate takeaway for me.

Earn Meng Chan: I believe that one takeaway for HR, for leaders. We always got to be prepared which we call business continuity plan. So previously, we always take it for granted. 

Earn Meng Chan: And succession as well, because the virus or some illness can just hit anyone. Maybe our senior leaders or our key position leaders, so having a good succession in the pipeline is also something that is critical. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah. Recording in April 2021. So this is the time when I look at my Facebook feed in the morning, I keep seeing what happened one year ago.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: And you're absolutely right. I think the whole world scrambled. No one was ready. And this experience also made me realize how resilient the human spirit is. That we can all emerge from this crisis stronger. And that businesses learn as well. How do I ensure a healthy pipeline of leaders? How do I make sure business can continue be it face to face, hybrid working for some industries or even fully remote working for all. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah. And something that you said, reminded me my interviews with one of my other guests. He use this term water melon reports which I thought was quite apt. Watermelon report means, it's green on the outside, but when you go and check inside, it's all red- meaning all the alarm bells. And he also urge leaders don't stay in the office and read reports. Go down to the ground. Talk to the customers. Talk to the employees. Talk to the industry partners because that is where you get a good sense of the reality.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: And again, that's the first step of RE four coaching model to reconstruct the map. It's so important only when we know what reality is, then we can respond accordingly. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Yeah, that's very good. Great. So I'm sure now listeners, viewers, right now, you would be interested to learn more about Earn Meng, so I will include his social links in the show notes. Feel free to reach out to him.

Chuen Chuen Yeo: And I encourage all of you to grab a copy of eight paradoxes of leadership agility from my website. Really a good conversation with you. And I learned something. So thank you Earn Meng for being here today. 

Earn Meng Chan: My pleasure. I really love the book, and I am so thankful that you have written something like this, which is very helpful. And you actually make the concept so easy to understand. So great. I hope that more people will read the book and be able to get value. 

Chuen Chuen Yeo: Thank you so much.